lightbulb Danse Macabre Previews

02 Oct 2013 13:40 - 02 Oct 2013 13:40 #54697 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Danse Macabre Previews

Why is there no cost to untap?

Inventing a celerity combat card that gives you a press and a maneuver at inf.? Too good because Enkidu. Thinking of a new Thaumaturgy card? Oh no, Carna and Cybele will get better. Animalism? Gosh, Nana gets a goodie. You see the point.


Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps?

I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. With this design philosophy, what's the solution to weak combat disciplines? Adding more damage bonuses? This only further compounds the homogenization of disciplines, and does little to add variety to the game.

And how adding a cost would have changed anything?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 02 Oct 2013 13:40 by Ankha.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Oct 2013 14:06 - 02 Oct 2013 14:07 #54700 by Damnans
Replied by Damnans on topic Re: Danse Macabre Previews

:vtes: V:EKN Website Coordinator

:baal: :AUS: :DAI: :FOR: :OBF: :PRE: :MAL: :STR: :flight: :cap11:
Last edit: 02 Oct 2013 14:07 by Damnans.
The following user(s) said Thank You: er-principe, Soonerborn

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Oct 2013 14:58 - 02 Oct 2013 14:58 #54707 by jamesatzephyr

Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost.


Yet, very often we find players worried that a large cap vampire is paying for disciplines they'll never use. Why pay for 6 disciplines, when your deck is only using 2 or 3, sometimes 4? So it's not clear to me why giving a benefit to vampires with wide discipline spreads is bad per se.

Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps?


It seems odd that you want to improve the (City) Gangrel Antitribu but simultaneously want to prevent them getting access to abilities that are known to be strong. It doesn't have to be an either/or.

I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same.


We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand?
Last edit: 02 Oct 2013 14:58 by jamesatzephyr.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Oct 2013 15:19 #54709 by Count Orlok


We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand?


I don't mean to imply replicating Rutor's Hand. I mean to suggest looking at it as a potential model. What I find troubling - among others - is how Instantaneous Transformation is basically Forced March or Freak Drive with little to give it character. I'm also troubled by simply replicating other powerful abilities, instead of trying to give Gangrel Anti their own powerful abilities. They already have clan cards, but simply ones that are not strong enough. A good design would try to supplement the Gangrel Anti in a fashion tailored to their clan. Instantaneous Transformation simply cribs from other disciplines diluting the distinction between FOR/CEL and CEL/PRO. I'm not arguing that it's a weak card, but that's it's uninteresting, and contributes more to The Unnamed and Enkidu than Gangrel Anti. It's not serving the function that the new set should.

:same: :FOR: :NEC: :THN: :pre: Baron of Berkeley :bl: :cap8:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Oct 2013 15:23 #54710 by Lemminkäinen
!Gangrel have plenty of powerful vampires. Aksinya, Una, Enkidu, even Janey Pickman - all very powerful. But they aren't city gangrel. The way to help the city gangrel is to make dual discipline cards for their unique spread of cel obf pro.

I think that this is perfectly fine bit of design.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Oct 2013 15:23 #54711 by jamesatzephyr


We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand?


I don't mean to imply replicating Rutor's Hand. I mean to suggest looking at it as a potential model. What I find troubling - among others - is how Instantaneous Transformation is basically Forced March or Freak Drive with little to give it character. I'm also troubled by simply replicating other powerful abilities, instead of trying to give Gangrel Anti their own powerful abilities.


So, you're objecting to them getting a card that uses Forced March as a potential model (because that's not giving them their own powerful abilities) and saying to give them a card that uses Rutor's Hand and Clotho's Gift as a potential model instead (because that apparently is giving them their own powerful ability).

Alrighty then.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.118 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum