file Archeology: Jyhad combat as it can be reconstructed from present time

29 May 2018 11:38 - 29 May 2018 11:38 #87675 by elotar

If there were any issues with VTES that were introduced at that time, I think it's safe to say all parties involved were responsible.


For the 10th time: Jyhad development was pressed by time and other issues - mistakes may be acceptable, unacceptable part is that the game suffered reboot and three expansions after it without any meaningful corrections to initial fuckups.

:splat: NC Russia
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Last edit: 29 May 2018 11:38 by elotar.

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29 May 2018 12:49 #87678 by TwoRazorReign

If there were any issues with VTES that were introduced at that time, I think it's safe to say all parties involved were responsible.


For the 10th time: Jyhad development was pressed by time and other issues - mistakes may be acceptable, unacceptable part is that the game suffered reboot and three expansions after it without any meaningful corrections to initial fuckups.


I'm not arguing about what you find acceptable or unacceptable. I am merely stating that Garfield was also to blame for the purported "initial fuckups." In addition, the responsibility for the three expansions without "meaningful corrections" falls on the lead designer as well, and not just the other people involved. The anecdote about locking himself in a room proves that Garfield was not a good communicator and perhaps fostered a dysfunctional environment. This led to those "initial fuckups" and no later "meaningful corrections" because the lead designer did not communicate that there should be "meaningful corrections." So those "initial fuckups" may have been interpreted as designer intent because of lack of communication.

On the basis of the anecdotal evidence you cited earlier, this is as plausible a scenario as anything you stated previously.

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29 May 2018 12:56 #87679 by LivesByProxy
Elotar would you mind reiterating your main points? I'm trying to understand. It sounds like you want a soft reboot or soft reset to correct perceived problems, but what do you think the problems are?

Zip Gun+DBR combo?
IG & Psyche! being hard-counters to S:CE?
S:CE making Dodges and Prevention and Press-to-End less useful?
The power level of Dominate?
The M-S-P combat system?

I think the game has some problems too (things it could do differently for a better / quicker experience) but what do you think should be done? What should be fixed?

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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29 May 2018 13:55 #87681 by elotar

I am merely stating that Garfield was also to blame for the purported "initial fuckups." In addition, the responsibility for the three expansions without "meaningful corrections" falls on the lead designer as well, and not just the other people involved. The anecdote about locking himself in a room proves that Garfield was not a good communicator and perhaps fostered a dysfunctional environment.


I think you got some strange ideas about role of Garfield in this project. Generally he made initial design, got some say in questions of organizing development process and then mostly fade into the background, having even not enough authority (or just time) to "fight changes" which break key elements of the game.

Also I think you've missed in SCE thread, that there is clearly visible agenda of pushing some cards, which happen to be most troublesome.

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29 May 2018 14:10 - 29 May 2018 14:12 #87683 by TwoRazorReign

I think you got some strange ideas about role of Garfield in this project. Generally he made initial design, got some say in questions of organizing development process and then mostly fade into the background, having even not enough authority (or just time) to "fight changes" which break key elements of the game.


I am just going with what I read in the anecdote about Garfield locking himself in a room. How are you able to determine Garfield's exact role? Are there other anecdotes I am missing?

Also I think you've missed in SCE thread, that there is clearly visible agenda of pushing some cards, which happen to be most troublesome.


Again, I don't recall seeing any anecdotes about this. I recall you stating there was an agenda, but without citing any evidence.

Let's pretend what you say here is all true. The point still remains: those "initial fuckups" were incorporated into VTES, which is credited as designed by Garfield. Hence, they are as much his responsibility as anybody else's. Even if later expansions did not include "meaningful corrections," this may have been done to coincide with what was perceived to be Garfield's original design intent. Unless you have actual anecdotes proving the contrary, what I say here is as plausible as anything you've said previously.
Last edit: 29 May 2018 14:12 by TwoRazorReign.

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29 May 2018 14:13 #87684 by elotar

Elotar would you mind reiterating your main points? I'm trying to understand. It sounds like you want a soft reboot or soft reset to correct perceived problems, but what do you think the problems are?

Zip Gun+DBR combo?
IG & Psyche! being hard-counters to S:CE?
S:CE making Dodges and Prevention and Press-to-End less useful?
The power level of Dominate?
The M-S-P combat system?

I think the game has some problems too (things it could do differently for a better / quicker experience) but what do you think should be done? What should be fixed?


Fuck.

Agenda here was to reconstruct Jyhad combat as it was before shit hit the fan just for academical reasons. It got nothing to do with the game as it is - I've already written what should be done with current combat system in "option B" thread. As even it looks "too extreme" for many, there is no point in discussing more radical ideas, like "soft reboot".

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