file Timeouts in Finals: Do they happen too often?

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Poll: Timeouts in Finals: Do they happen too often? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

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24 Oct 2012 04:41 #39715 by KevinM

It is interesting that you cutoff my quote in the middle. Everything after what you cutoff answers your concerns, unless you have weak judges that are unwilling to enforce proper play -- and since you yourself have agreed with me and defined 5 minutes of Ashur'ing as slow, then we have no issues. Find strong judges.


You can't rely on judge in the very moment an effect makes to select *13* cards and also to choose one to put back in hand, as there's no rule forcing a player to select those 13 in advance or being specially quicker with such consistent selection decision, general point was another:
in the respect of timeouts (so pool gain *and* lenghty decisions) some effects, also one without table interaction as AT, just make typical slow play even more slower, and this is very true especially with AT which just made the master phase so boring slow nowadays

I guess you should have called a judge over after the 2nd Ashur was put onto the table. I would've, if I'd have had the issues that you've seemed to have had.

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24 Oct 2012 04:50 #39716 by er-principe

It is interesting that you cutoff my quote in the middle. Everything after what you cutoff answers your concerns, unless you have weak judges that are unwilling to enforce proper play -- and since you yourself have agreed with me and defined 5 minutes of Ashur'ing as slow, then we have no issues. Find strong judges.


You can't rely on judge in the very moment an effect makes to select *13* cards and also to choose one to put back in hand, as there's no rule forcing a player to select those 13 in advance or being specially quicker with such consistent selection decision, general point was another:
in the respect of timeouts (so pool gain *and* lenghty decisions) some effects, also one without table interaction as AT, just make typical slow play even more slower, and this is very true especially with AT which just made the master phase so boring slow nowadays

I guess you should have called a judge over after the 2nd Ashur was put onto the table. I would've, if I'd have had the issues that you've seemed to have had.


As said, you can't call a judge in advance of a would be slow play, that would be just pointless and also there's no rule enforcing a player to select in advance the cards for AT

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24 Oct 2012 10:07 #39719 by Lönkka
If you have finals and the judge is enot watching it or in immediate vicinity, something in wrong IMHO...

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24 Oct 2012 10:53 - 24 Oct 2012 10:56 #39722 by er-principe

If you have finals and the judge is enot watching it or in immediate vicinity, something in wrong IMHO...


Even in final a judge can't force a player to set aside his cards in advance for a future AT, as there's no rule allowing that (or more in general, no rule enforcing that a player must spare as much time as possibile setting aside stuff for future effects that are not even granted to happen); lenghty (or stalling for time) decisions can be just evaluated once an effect triggers and needs some not-so-fast operation to be done (as such as 13 card retrival from ash heap, or choosing by the controlling players how all of the titled vampire at the table will vote in the referendum, and the like)

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Last edit: 24 Oct 2012 10:56 by er-principe.

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24 Oct 2012 11:10 - 24 Oct 2012 11:12 #39723 by Izaak

as such as 13 card retrival from ash heap


You are VASTLY overestimating the amount of decision-making it takes to dig up 13 cards. And if it's not, you're not ready to play Ashur decks which should give a judge even more incentive to tell you to move on instead of making everyone else wait.

Even in final a judge can't force a player to set aside his cards in advance for a future AT


A jugde can *certainly* force a player to complete his Ashur cycle in ~90 seconds. If that means said player needs to start earlier, then so be it.

I just don't understand why most VTES players are so protective of disruptively slow play. I'd guess it's because judges are afraid to piss off players and end up with even less turnup in tournaments.

Anecdotal, this weekend I was watching the M:TG Return to Ravnica pro-tour events. Obviously, it being the pro-tour there is a lot more at stake than an entry in Jeff's TWDA and some boosters you don't really need.

There was a French player who was playing a rather technical deck and was facing a fairly complicated situation where he had some tough decisions to make. The guy was *genuinly* considering his options and trying to make the best play given the situation, but it was taking ages.

BAM! Without warning, a judge comes in, gives him his (second) slowplay warning of the day and with it a loss in that game. In game five (of a best of five) he gets ANOTHER warning and it took the head judge to not transform that into another game loss.

I mean, sure, that might be on the harsh side but that's what good judges should be doing. I don't agree with Kevin a lot, but here he's 100% spot-on: get better judges.
Last edit: 24 Oct 2012 11:12 by Izaak.

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24 Oct 2012 11:17 #39725 by Ohlmann

I mean, sure, that might be on the harsh side but that's what good judges should be doing. I don't agree with Kevin a lot, but here he's 100% spot-on: get better judges.


It's a question of what tournament are for. If you believe that the focus is on player skill (like in MTG big tournament), it's perfectly fine. If you believe that the tournament are a way to meet up and play, then it's not.

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