file Timeouts in Finals: Do they happen too often?

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Poll: Timeouts in Finals: Do they happen too often? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

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20 Oct 2012 16:18 - 20 Oct 2012 16:18 #39534 by Pascal Bertrand

I'm seeing an awful lot of 1.5 VP tournament wins in recent reports.
Are you seeing the same thing locally?
Are players playing the clock rather than playing the game?

1.5 / 0 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 is not really the same as 1.5 / 1 / 0 / 0.5 / 0.5 or even 1.5 / 1 / 1 / 0 / 0.5 (where 3 players were ousted)
Last edit: 20 Oct 2012 16:18 by Pascal Bertrand.

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20 Oct 2012 20:04 - 21 Oct 2012 14:16 #39541 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
By their very nature, a finals game is less likely to end in a game win than preliminary rounds are.

In prelims, players are forced to push for wins to reach the finals. Even in small tournaments where a win might not be needed to reach the final, players push for that one extra VP.

It's this forced aggression which result in lunge-VPs (successful lunge) or ousting opportunities for others (failed lunges).

In the finals, seeding actually demotivates the top seeds (presumably the decks with the highest ousting potential) from lunging.

Consider: Any 1st seed is nearly assured a tournament win if he can a garner a reasonably timely VP and survive to the 2 hour mark. In this case:

- his predator clearly could not win (no VP),
- his original grand predator could not win (at most having 1.5 VP, but lower seed),
- his original prey probably couldn't win, (he would have to accumulate 2 VP before the top seed ousts him)
- that leaves only the top seed's original grand prey as real threat to accumulate 2 VP.

(Note: edited for corrections on seating and VP distribution, sorry about that - I hurried too much in the initial post).

If the top seed makes the mistake of sitting to the left of the number 2 seed, he can put himself in a position where the #2 seed can become the de facto top seed. Most top seeds never seem to think about this, instead focusing only on deck match-ups and/or player tendencies (e.g., never sit on Randall Rusdam's left). IMO, that's poor play, even before the game starts.

Back to the original line of thought: This whole phenomenon is part of what makes Stickmen work so well. Players lunge in the early rounds, so Stickmen get a game win taking advantage of redirected lunge bleeds, which they follow with their own [DOM] powered bombs. If Sticks can get enough VPs in the prelims, any crafty player sits 2 seats behind some deck with limited offense and good defense (or huge bloat). They'll win a disproportionate number of those encounters with 1.5 VP.

That doesn't even count the "playing chicken" part of the finals, where players are trying to snipe a VP on their final turn, despite having a disregarded opportunity to oust (or set up the oust) on previous turns.
Last edit: 21 Oct 2012 14:16 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple.
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20 Oct 2012 22:15 - 27 Oct 2012 14:59 #39547 by Adonai

If most games end with a timeout, why wouldn't most finals end with a timeout?


Take a look thru the Tournament Reports forum, and look for the .5 VPs for the non-finalists, when the Archon results are reported. I've observed that the vast majority of games are ending in the initial rounds and only the finals is different. Locally, you may see timeouts in every round, in which case it is not players playing the clock, only players playing badly ( :evil: ).
Last edit: 27 Oct 2012 14:59 by Adonai.

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21 Oct 2012 08:06 - 21 Oct 2012 08:10 #39562 by extrala

.. never sit on Randall Rusdam's left). ...

Not trying to derail the interesting thread, it's good news that this valuable hint also reached the new world. :lol:

If the top seed makes the mistake of sitting to the left of the number 2 seed, he can put himself in a position where the #2 seed can become the de facto top seed.

Can you explain, I simply don't understand the rationale. If the top seed is the prey (left side) of the #2, and #2 becomes the defacto top seed, he must have ousted the top seed. So why should the top seed care?
Last edit: 21 Oct 2012 08:10 by extrala.
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21 Oct 2012 09:12 - 21 Oct 2012 09:12 #39566 by er-principe

People just play too slow in general, not just in the finals.


Each cycle of ashur tablets can eat away as much as 5 mins of cards
selection-put in hand-reshuffle deck; also on top of that we see lots of decks regaining an huge amount of pool with villein+lilith's blessing tricks and the like
Now consider this multiplied at least for 2 players at the table (i've seen no no less than 2 decks at table playing massively the ashur recursion + villein and /or liquidations and so on, in recent times) and to me that's why lots of tables (not only finals) ends up at time limit nowadays

Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
Last edit: 21 Oct 2012 09:12 by er-principe.
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21 Oct 2012 09:32 #39568 by Izaak

Each cycle of ashur tablets can eat away as much as 5 mins of cards
selection-put in hand-reshuffle deck;


Yes and it takes so long because players are slow. I play Ashur tablets a lot and it takes me 90 seconds at most to select the cards I want and shuffle them into my deck. That's because unlike many other players, I actually think about what I want back before playing the third tablet.

also on top of that we see lots of decks regaining an huge amount of pool with villein+lilith's blessing tricks and the like
Now consider this multiplied at least for 2 players at the table (i've seen no no less than 2 decks at table playing massively the ashur recursion + villein and /or liquidations and so on, in recent times) and to me that's why lots of tables (not only finals) ends up at time limit nowadays


When I play with friends, we hardly ever time, because we don't take minutes for the first few turns. Yet at tournaments, oftentimes you see yourself in turn 5 after 60 minutes. I can understand later turns or lunge turns need some extra consideration, but Governing down to dude X and declaring no blocks shouldn't take too long, right?

I've also seen people take up to five minutes for the master phase WHILE THEY HAD NO MASTER IN HAND (and no master phase effects on the table either, mind you). And this isn't even uncommon!

People just play too slow, that's really it.
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