Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
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Poll: Problem? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)
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09 Nov 2012 11:55 #40694
by Ankha
Pool gain is more popular (and efficient) because it resists bleed, vote, and allows you to spend pool on other resources.
Reducing pool gain doesn't mean the weenie decks will win, rather than you'll have to use other methods to resist.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
No, it's not a necessity since you have many ways to counter it: playing Deflection-like cards, bleed reducer, Protected Resources, intercept...
I disagree. Gaining blood is fine, if the blood is used to play cards, not to gain pool. Draining 1 pool per turn using a Blood Doll is slow and acceptable. Gaining 8 pool or more with a trifle master is fast.
The necessity to do so is all derived from the fact that 2-caps can still bleed for 5 in this game. If fast Eddy wouldn't be hitting your pool for 4 starting with turn 2 and is then joined by two more buddies that can do the same, there would be less need to get silly amounts of pool back from your 10-caps *fast*.
Pool gain is more popular (and efficient) because it resists bleed, vote, and allows you to spend pool on other resources.
Reducing pool gain doesn't mean the weenie decks will win, rather than you'll have to use other methods to resist.
It's midly an issue, there are plenty of cards against weenie (more than in 1994) and few vampires that bleed you for more than their capacity. Maybe Samson in one game out of many, Keith Moody or Midget (for 4 instead of 3) but most of the time Apache Jones will bleed you for 4. This rules would save only 1 pool from time to time.This issue has been brought up since 1994 and instead of implementing the extremely easy to remember, suggested since 1994, totally sensible rule that a vampire can't bleed for more than its capacity,
Players will pack more combat, intercept or bleed reduction. Or more Blood Dolls, or more Banishment. They are plenty of solutions.
If Villein/Minion Tap were banned (for example), Voter Captivation, Lilith's Blessing, Abactor... won't be issues. You have blood, you can play more cards, more combat etc. You also have to be more careful and can't bring out 30+ influence on the table.
If Villein/MT were banned, the game would evolve to the point where you play midcaps with 10 deflections or weenie dom, weenie dem or weenie aus. Between all the poolgain people are STILL winning tables and/or tournaments with weenie dementation. I don't want to know what would happen without MT/Villein.
IMHO, it won't change anything. GB and Lilith's are not necessary to make an IC deck work.
Or you ban blood gaining cards (far more numerous and complicated!), meaning you play with free vampires that have no blood, with 0-cost cards because you can't afford to pay blood, which would lead to a more boring game (imho) and more tiemout since everyone gains pool easily.
Or, you start with banning GB and Liliths (and maybe limit master cards to 2 per turn, including trifle and OoT) and see how the game evolves from there?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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09 Nov 2012 13:15 #40706
by Juggernaut1981
Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Replied by Juggernaut1981 on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
Actually the discussion is meant to be about this:
If you were going to change the way VTES manages its blood-to-pool conversion do you want to:
1) Reduce the amount of blood people can convert back into pool
2) Reduce the amount, and ease, of creating new blood on minions
3) Both
4) No changes needed.
Personally, my issue is 2.
It weakens combat strategies (which are already shifted towards S:CE and avoidance). Its main cards enhance already strong archetypes (i.e. Voter Cap is potentially too powerful). Its ability to drag games on for a long period of time has been apparent for a LONG time in VTES(Who here has not seen a Tap & Cap deck, probably a Ven Lawfirm or a AAA, on 30+ pool with 30+ in minions and locations towards the mid-to-late game?). Most of the cards which provide large volumes of blood (Voter Cap, GB, Renewed Vigor) provide resource changes far greater than almost any card in VTES (Even Parity Shift can only make a 10-pool swing, Con Boon rarely makes a 10+ pool change). Voter Cap often provides 6 blood and 2 pool (there is no other card play that provides that amount of resource) AND does so as a reward for basically taking ousting actions. This influx of resources can cancel out whole turns of bleeding/voting/actions by a predator in a single action mod.
If you were going to change the way VTES manages its blood-to-pool conversion do you want to:
1) Reduce the amount of blood people can convert back into pool
2) Reduce the amount, and ease, of creating new blood on minions
3) Both
4) No changes needed.
Personally, my issue is 2.
It weakens combat strategies (which are already shifted towards S:CE and avoidance). Its main cards enhance already strong archetypes (i.e. Voter Cap is potentially too powerful). Its ability to drag games on for a long period of time has been apparent for a LONG time in VTES(Who here has not seen a Tap & Cap deck, probably a Ven Lawfirm or a AAA, on 30+ pool with 30+ in minions and locations towards the mid-to-late game?). Most of the cards which provide large volumes of blood (Voter Cap, GB, Renewed Vigor) provide resource changes far greater than almost any card in VTES (Even Parity Shift can only make a 10-pool swing, Con Boon rarely makes a 10+ pool change). Voter Cap often provides 6 blood and 2 pool (there is no other card play that provides that amount of resource) AND does so as a reward for basically taking ousting actions. This influx of resources can cancel out whole turns of bleeding/voting/actions by a predator in a single action mod.
Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
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09 Nov 2012 14:08 #40709
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
Proven by who? And bounce is simply superior to bleed reduction, but that doesn't mean bleed reduction isn't effective.
No, it's not a necessity since you have many ways to counter it: playing Deflection-like cards, bleed reducer, Protected Resources, intercept...
Out of these, only bounce actually work. This has been proven over and over again and I really don't think it's even worth mentioning bleed reduction and protected resources.
once again, you're mixing up things. People play Villein because it's the more effective strategy. That doesn't mean other strategies are inexistant.
Players will pack more combat, intercept or bleed reduction. Or more Blood Dolls, or more Banishment. They are plenty of solutions.
Except, there are not. Because if there were, people wouldn't all be using Villeins
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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09 Nov 2012 15:20 #40713
by Ankha
Being able to play more master cards because Villein is a trifle is a bit weird. It's like saying master should be free (=>paid with the pool villein gives) and don't require a MPA to be playable (=> MPA provided by Villein). Master are becoming too easy to play nowadays, but it's just my point of view.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
Am I the only player that have decks featuring 7+ caps without any MT or Villein? I hope not. Anyway, it's certainly not mandatory. Just an easy and effective way (some may say 'no-brainer').Ya know, we could argue this forever, but I was fairly sure you played tons of tournaments and should have witnessed enough games to conclude that other than bounce and poolgain, all forms of pool defense are simply bad, because they require your deck to revolve around it.
Even before Villein, who played bleed reduce? Right, nobody did because it's ineffective at what it's supposed to do. Who plays protected resources? Some vote decks do, and even that is a stretch. Wall decks, sure, they don´t need pool recovery but that´s because they´re freaking walls.
Before Villein everyone played Minion Tap on their 7+ caps because, yes, it's efficient but also because it's mandatory to do so. There simply are no viable alternatives.
The quote was snipped because of using my phone to edit the message, but the debate is not on whether Villein is better than MT, rather than it's better than any other pool strategy (except in cases you need that blood on your vampire to play cards).
once again, you're mixing up things. People play Villein because it's the more effective strategy. That doesn't mean other strategies are inexistant.
That Villein is better than Minion Tap we all now and shouldn't be argued. Would you prefer to go back to the scenario where 90% of my master cards would sit in the box forever, because I need to hog MT's and/or Blood Dolls again? Because I wouldn't.
Being able to play more master cards because Villein is a trifle is a bit weird. It's like saying master should be free (=>paid with the pool villein gives) and don't require a MPA to be playable (=> MPA provided by Villein). Master are becoming too easy to play nowadays, but it's just my point of view.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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