Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?

I don't want to nerf Villein right now.
Here are the reasons (some of them were already pointed out):

- I don't want to see again 90% of the decks packing 6 blood dolls. It was the case when I started toplay V:TES, and really I don't see why it is more interesting to ruin half of your masters slots + MPA when you build a deck. Izaak pointed it, you can now play more different masters thanks to the trifle trait on bloat masters.

- I don't want to see 80% of the decks dying turn 5 to Vignes and Dementation. The fact is, if a Vignes deck is well built, it will probably bleed for 18 or so (even more depending on draws) turn 5.

- Nerfing villein is nerfing big caps decks. Means more weenie, more vignes/dem, and thus more intercept to survivre vignes/dem. I don't want to see more intercept decks at V:TES tables. There are enough of it. Cept decks makes tables slower (more than ashur/liquidation) and prevents people from playing. Cept decks are just frustrating to play against. I'm ok with them right now, but I don't want to see table crowded with those.

And again, at least here in France, the meta is really diverse - there is rarely more than 1 fatty villein deck in a given tables. I know only 3 ppl in Paris playing villein/ashur tablets on a regular basis, including me - and I play a lot of different decks.

V:TES is on his slow way to the end - let people play the decks they like. I like to play a lot of masters, and to manage my master phases. It's not more interesting to me to play minion cards - except torn grapple disarm decapitate ofc

My 2 cents of subjective point of view of me myself and I.

Izaak wrote:

The retarded "I gain 300 pool and never oust someone" decks are an unfortunate side-effect,

The friends of the people that play these horrible decks should take them aside and explain to them -- or even track for them, on paper -- the number of VPs that they are getting, and make them understand that they aren't bad players, they are just playing bad decks.

I really like this idea: bleed of crypt cards is capped by capacity.

Someone needs to start a new topic and explain why it should never happen in VTES (as stubborn a community to change as one can ever find).

edit: Wasn't there another idea floating out there? Native bleed by capacity tier or something? 1-4 cap = 0 bleed, 5-8 cap = 1 bleed, 9+ cap = 2 bleed.

Having IC's have native bleeds targetable to Archon Investigation doesn't bother me much.

Azel wrote:

I really like this idea: bleed of crypt cards is capped by capacity.

Someone needs to start a new topic and explain why it should never happen in VTES (as stubborn a community to change as one can ever find).

edit: Wasn't there another idea floating out there? Native bleed by capacity tier or something? 1-4 cap = 0 bleed, 5-8 cap = 1 bleed, 9+ cap = 2 bleed.

Having IC's have native bleeds targetable to Archon Investigation doesn't bother me much.

If you think this should be in another thread, then start it. Not sure why it ended up here...

I think the problem isnt blood or pool recursion. It is, as Ashur said, the missing interaction with master cards.

- Too many good master cards are playable by all players (no limitation by sect or clan).
- It is too simple to play more good master cards (trifles, Parthenon, vampires with +1 MPA)
- It is too difficult to interfere with others masterphase.

Azel wrote:

edit: Wasn't there another idea floating out there? Native bleed by capacity tier or something? 1-4 cap = 0 bleed, 5-8 cap = 1 bleed, 9+ cap = 2 bleed.

Sure, that would be an amazing change for the game to make all 1-4 cap vampires worse than a 2 pool Nephandus. This + ruining like 20 (or more) deck archetypes, including most of the weenies and half of the ally decks.

But be sure to also ban villein & minion tap along, so and weenies and big caps are not playble anymore... And we could finally all play ventrue grinders, carna and howler with 6 blood dolls. Yay !