Action Cards, Angel of Berlin, On the Qui Vive, and Determine

Robba wrote:

This question came up because I was doing this in a JOL game. I disagree with the ruling and I do not see how it makes any logical sense...

I agree with you, Rob. I believe in my r.g.t-c.j searches it was eventually just ruled this way "axiomatically" and that's that. Live and learn.

I my opinion, it makes sense to distinguish between "untap, do X" and "as if untapped do X" (apart from the maths) in the "as played" window: it helps keeping the survey of what can be done in that window.

If untapping were allowed, it would be much harder to hold "queues" of in-between effects to a limit, thus reducing manageability.

Brum wrote:

LSJ wrote:

> Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with
> vigilance, but possible with wake?
Presence or absence of "may play reaction cards as if untapped" effect.
Cards with such effect can be played in the "as played" window.
Other cards cannot be (unless they have explicit text to do so).

I don't understand this ruling. I have nothing but respect and friendship for Scott, but I really don't see why Angel of Berlin doesn't work there.
You don't need the "may play reaction cards as if untapped" text, because the minion is untapped.
It sounds like a "because it is so" argument.

The timing is.
1. someone plays an action card
2. the "as played" windows is open.
3. nobody plays DI, determine, uses Louhi or similar
4. the "as played" window closes
5. you play Angel of Berlin

Similar example: you can´t fish for DI by tapping the barrens after the action is announced. V:tES tries to avoid stacking of effects.

Note that there would be a much simpler way to rule with no stack system and no exceptions: not allow wakes either in the "as played" window.

agzocgud wrote:

Brum wrote:

LSJ wrote:

> Then I don't understand the ruling above, why is it not possible with
> vigilance, but possible with wake?
Presence or absence of "may play reaction cards as if untapped" effect.
Cards with such effect can be played in the "as played" window.
Other cards cannot be (unless they have explicit text to do so).

I don't understand this ruling. I have nothing but respect and friendship for Scott, but I really don't see why Angel of Berlin doesn't work there.
You don't need the "may play reaction cards as if untapped" text, because the minion is untapped.
It sounds like a "because it is so" argument.

The timing is.
1. someone plays an action card
2. the "as played" windows is open.
3. nobody plays DI, determine, uses Louhi or similar
4. the "as played" window closes
5. you play Angel of Berlin

Similar example: you can´t fish for DI by tapping the barrens after the action is announced. V:tES tries to avoid stacking of effects.

Why can I play wake + Touch of Clarity (in step 3), but not Angel of Berlin + Determine?
You guys are missing the point:
I can play DI (Master Out of Turn), but not AoB (another MOoT).

There is no stack needed. It the same way there is no stack in any other time in the came when a player plays 2 cards (wake + Enhanced Senses, Carrion Crows + Flesh of Marble, etc.).

Brum wrote:

You guys are missing the point:
I can play DI (Master Out of Turn), but not AoB (another MOoT).

Only because the DI card text explicitely tells you to play it at that time.