Spirit Marionette inferior and Secure Haven

Adonai wrote:

Pascal wrote:

"Target" isn't the right word here. "Eligible minion" is better.

This is the source of the disagreement.
An action to tap a minion controlled by your prey requires a target.
It is also always a directed action because it targets something controlled by someone else and is not a political action.

That the action has 2 effects and potentially 2 targets should not make one of them a non-directed effect.

It is my belief that LSJ was wrong on this, and that an over-ruling would be appropriate.

I'm done presenting my arguments, and I will abide with Pascal's ruling.

Much like Taunt the Caged Beast?

EDIT: one thing I forgot to mention:
When does the tapping of the minion occur?
It seems to me that it is after the successful resolution of the bleed action, or at least denial of blocks.
If so, it is after all blocks have been denied by the Prey, because deflecting is denying block implicitly.
Therefore the question might be moot, since he denied blocking the action.

Brum wrote:

EDIT: one thing I forgot to mention:
When does the tapping of the minion occur?
It seems to me that it is after the successful resolution of the bleed action, or at least denial of blocks.
If so, it is after all blocks have been denied by the Prey, because deflecting is denying block implicitly.
Therefore the question might be moot, since he denied blocking the action.

I'm confused. Why do you think that any of the effects of the action would happen before the action is unblocked and declared successful?

Adonai wrote:

That the action has 2 effects and potentially 2 targets should not make one of them a non-directed effect.

It is my belief that LSJ was wrong on this, and that an over-ruling would be appropriate.

I think what happened here is that the rulings pre-date RTR 08-08-08. www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR080808.htm

Prior to that set of rulings, the situation was that if an action had precisely one target Methuselah, it was a directed action. If it had zero or more than one, it was undirected. I imagine that LSJ would not want to declare it an undirected action, so it was declared a action with a weird side-effect.

Since RTR 08-08-08, I cannot find anyone asking about it. Nor can I find it in any private discussions that were had about it. (I was copied on a long, constructive argument discussion between LSJ and another player about what became the action change in RTR 08-08-08.) Most of the issues were about what happened if someone gained immunity, or if a target left the ready region/was burned.(e.g. burning Underbridge Stray)


I'm unsure if this issue has ever arisen post-RTR 08-08-08.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

I'm confused. Why do you think that any of the effects of the action would happen before the action is unblocked and declared successful?

I don't.
That's exactly what I was trying to write.
If a Prey deflects the bleed, he denies the block.
When the bleed goes to another target, the Prey cannot try to block (unless it goes back to him).
Therefore, his minion is tapped.
I still think the Secure Haven question is pertinent.

I'm with Jeff here. It is up to Pascal to decide and either way is ok, as long as there's a reasoning behind the decision (and I know Pascal always does).

Brum wrote:

If a Prey deflects the bleed, he denies the block.
When the bleed goes to another target, the Prey cannot try to block (unless it goes back to him).

According to the rules, new blocking opportunities should arise. In my eyes, having SM not being an action directed at the methusaleh who's about to get a minion tapped would clash slightly with the rules.

Of course, as Pascal said, we could just call the soon to be tapped minion an "eligible minion" instead of a "target". Slight problem would be that it would introduce a new term to the game with all that brings (needs of definitions, loads of questions etc).

From the rulebook :

Directed Action: An action of one Methuselah's minion that targets one or more other Methuselahs (or the minions or cards they control).

From the general rulings :

If the target of a directed action is reset, a new "choose blockers" opportunity results. [RTR 19970630]

You raised valid points.

Let's call the chosen minion a target, as he/she is a target.

As a result:

- inferior Spirit Marionnette can't be taken against someone with no minion.
- inferior Spirit Marionnette can't target a minion with a Secure Haven.
- if the inferior Spirit Marionnette bleed is deflected, the chosen minion is still a target of the action, and the action is still a D action against your prey (and, sometimes, someone else).

This reverses a couple of rulings that were issued (and confirmed) earlier.