Mask of a Thousand Faces

henrik wrote:

Is vampire Y capable of performing a bleed for 2 (without the use of any cards or other effects)?

The current rulings imply that an effect is considered used only after it's resolved. Stealth resolves immediately - the action has +1 additional stealth, independant of whether the anyone attempts to block or not (consider cards like Keep it Simple or Draba). The bleed amount only resolves when pool is actually burnt, and a number of effects can change that (Conditioning and Telepathic Counter for example.)

An informative thread is this one on Form of Mist + Mask , especially the bits about when +strength counts as a "used effect".

Of course, rulings like LSJ's ruling that Nakhthorheb cannot be masked, as his "minions with corruption counters cannot block" text is considered used, even if there are no corruption counters on the table, do rather muddy the waters around the whole thing.

drnlmza wrote:

henrik wrote:

Is vampire Y capable of performing a bleed for 2 (without the use of any cards or other effects)?

The current rulings imply that an effect is considered used only after it's resolved. Stealth resolves immediately - the action has +1 additional stealth, independant of whether the anyone attempts to block or not (consider cards like Keep it Simple or Draba). The bleed amount only resolves when pool is actually burnt, and a number of effects can change that (Conditioning and Telepathic Counter for example.)

I don't see how Draba or Keep it Simple would make stealth more block attempt independant than Telepathic Counter, Archon Investigation or Justicar Retribution would make +bleed resolution independant.
Draba and Keep it Simple checks/changes/uses the current stealth value, just like Telepathic Counter, Archon Investigation or Justicar Retribution checks/changes/uses the current bleed amount.
I do understand the current rulings reason a bit more, but I still think it's more confusing than having +bleed be an effect (seeing as it acts and looks like one in most ways). The problem I have with the ruling is that I find it hard to apply on other things. How am I supposed to know what effects are applied when? Is bleed the exception here, the only one that's "used" during resolution?
The way I see it, effects should either be
a) used/applied right away (when announcing/playing the card)
or
b) not used/applied until "needed" (when anything checks for them, like bleed resolution, block attempts, AI, Draba etc.)

The current rulings seems to have each effect (if it even is considered an effect) work in it's own way, which may or may not be the same as another effect. So what you said about the current rulings implying that effects are only used when resolved isn't entirely correct.

A vampire with +1 strength is considered "using" xer +1 strength when declaring a hand strike (for 2), even if combat ends before the strike is resolved.
Vampire X's +1 strength text is considered to be identical to vampire Y's +1 strength text, Mask of a Thousand Faces can be played after the case above.

A vampire with +1 stealth is considered "using" xer +1 stealth when announcing the action.
Vampire X's +1 stealth text is not considered to be identical to vampire Y's +1 stealth text, Mask of a Thousand Faces can not be played.

A vampire with +1 bleed is not considered "using" xer +1 bleed until the action is successfully resolved, even if the bleed amount is announced and/or changed before then.
Vampire X's +1 bleed text isn't considered at all regarding Mask of a Thousand Faces.

That's 3 different solutions for 3 rather common vampire card texts. As you said, throwing Nakthoreb and a bunch of other stuff into the mix and it gets rather muddy indeed.

The only upside I can see to having it the current way is that it makes Mask of a Thousand Faces a bit more useful (and that a bunch of us has the current rulings memorized). In my opinion that doesn't outweigh the inconsistency it brings. As it is now I can read pages and pages of google discussions and still not get any closer to being able to figure out how Mask of a Thousand Faces considers an "effect" that isn't explicitly mentioned in one of the older rulings.

drnlmza wrote:

henrik wrote:

Of course, rulings like LSJ's ruling that Nakhthorheb cannot be masked, as his "minions with corruption counters cannot block" text is considered used, even if there are no corruption counters on the table, do rather muddy the waters around the whole thing.

That ruling seems to contradict the classic TGB + Moa1kF ruling. I'll put it under review - I think we need a simple statement that says when Mask is usable, and when it isn't (regarding the special abilities, mostly).

I think the problem comes from the idea that permanent effects are "used", because it forces you to set a timing on something that should not have any. It would be much easier to just rule that any permanent effect does not prevent playing MoTF, but of course does not carry on to the next acting minion.

You have to announce the use of an effect and the other acting vampire could not play it? You cannot play MoTF after. You don't have to announce it? You can play MoTF but the effect vanishes when the acting minion changes. Yes, it means that under some weird circumstances a blocker can be sent to torpor by Thetmes before realizing it was in fact Tansu Bekir acting, but screw roleplaying when you are trying to make a sound game system.