file The Jones, interrupting TV or not ?

18 May 2012 15:07 #30705 by Boris The Blade

If you look at the rulebook, actions are "taken"/"declared"/"announced", and strike are "chosen". It makes sense that Target Vitals states "as the strike is chosen" instead of "as the strike is announced" because of the "Choose Strike" step in the rulebook.
Anyway, the choice of words doesn't really matter since they are all synonyms in the game. You can't modify a strike (with T:V) that is cancelled, no more than you can modify an action (with Seduction or any modifier) that is cancelled.

Thanks for pointing that the mistake originates in the rulebook. That does not make it less of a mistake, though. Synonyms are bad i any formal system such as a set of rules, especially when other close words such as "announce" and "play" get different meanings. How do you want people to guess when a word difference is meaningful and when it is not?
The following user(s) said Thank You: AaronC

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18 May 2012 15:09 - 18 May 2012 15:10 #30706 by Reyda
The art of telling stuff for hours.

-Tell me James, is that sofa blue ?

- Well, to be honest, you might think it's blue, and i don't want to state the obvious by telling you that for most people blue it is. However if you consider the different shades of the light spectrum....

- (snoring)

Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Last edit: 18 May 2012 15:10 by Reyda.

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18 May 2012 18:36 #30716 by Ankha

If you look at the rulebook, actions are "taken"/"declared"/"announced", and strike are "chosen". It makes sense that Target Vitals states "as the strike is chosen" instead of "as the strike is announced" because of the "Choose Strike" step in the rulebook.
Anyway, the choice of words doesn't really matter since they are all synonyms in the game. You can't modify a strike (with T:V) that is cancelled, no more than you can modify an action (with Seduction or any modifier) that is cancelled.

Thanks for pointing that the mistake originates in the rulebook. That does not make it less of a mistake, though. Synonyms are bad i any formal system such as a set of rules, especially when other close words such as "announce" and "play" get different meanings. How do you want people to guess when a word difference is meaningful and when it is not?

Maybe someday a rulebook for robot with only 182 different words will be issued, until then we have to stick to logic and intuitivity.

By the way, here are the rules for Magic: the Gathering. I'm not sure it's better.

www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20120501.txt

706.7a If an ability causes a player to "choose a [value]" or "name a card," and a second, linked ability refers to that choice, the second ability is the only ability that can refer to that choice. An object doesn't "remember" that choice and use it for other abilities it may copy later. If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but either (a) doesn't copy that ability's linked ability or (b) does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be "undefined." If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won't do anything.
Example: Voice of All enters the battlefield and Unstable Shapeshifter copies it. Voice of All reads, in part, "As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color." and "Voice of All has protection from the chosen color." Unstable Shapeshifter never had a chance for a color to be chosen for it, because it didn't enter the battlefield as a Voice of All card, so the protection ability doesn't protect it from anything at all.
Example: A Vesuvan Doppelganger enters the battlefield as a copy of Voice of All, and the Doppelganger's controller chooses blue. Later, the Doppelganger copies Quirion Elves, which has the ability, "{T}: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool." Even though a color was chosen for the Doppelganger, it wasn't chosen for the ability linked to the mana ability copied from the Elves. If that mana ability of the Doppelganger is activated, it will not produce mana.


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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18 May 2012 21:25 #30728 by Juggernaut1981
@James:
And this has been my issue with some of the logic in rulings. The idea that a 'condition' statement creates a 'window'.

"If condition X is met, then you may play [CARD] using normal sequencing rules" seems far more long-term stable. Purely because it reduces the need to have things defined beyond the rulebook and the card.

Plus, I would also have suggested that any card which is "Playes as [CONDITION] must be played simultaneously (i.e. without replacement)" and any necessary cards drawn back into the hand if the card creating the condition is cancelled (e.g. T:V in this scenario, A weapon if Concealed Weapon was cancelled, Seduction if an action was cancelled).

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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19 May 2012 05:46 - 19 May 2012 05:46 #30733 by Ankha

Plus, I would also have suggested that any card which is "Playes as [CONDITION] must be played simultaneously (i.e. without replacement)" and any necessary cards drawn back into the hand if the card creating the condition is cancelled (e.g. T:V in this scenario, A weapon if Concealed Weapon was cancelled, Seduction if an action was cancelled).

Trying again to change the rules?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 19 May 2012 05:46 by Ankha.

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19 May 2012 05:55 #30734 by jamesatzephyr

@James:
And this has been my issue with some of the logic in rulings.


No, that really isn't your issue.

The idea that a 'condition' statement creates a 'window'.

"If condition X is met, then you may play [CARD] using normal sequencing rules" seems far more long-term stable.



The card is being played. You cancel it with The Jones as it is being played. Condition: "card is played" has been met.

After it has been played and the card has not been cancelled, the strike is chosen. Condition: "strike is chosen" has been met.


So we have long-term stability, exactly as you want it.

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