"Cannot be moved" and Carver's Meat Packing and Storage

Megabaja wrote:

I agree with AaronC that game rules in a current state do not say that you cannot take action that would have no effect.

I think James was making the point that there is a difference between doing something that has no effect and doing something whose effect is illegal. His point is valid.

My point has been that Carver's doesn't seem to restrict an action as written - it seems to restrict a result. Maybe my issue is with the use of the passive voice in that sentence. If the sentence said: "Hostages may not be the target of actions or effects that would move them to the ready region, and they may not attempt actions that would move themselves to the ready region." I would like it because it is very specific. Maybe my issue is that the text is not vigorously written. The passive voice even implies that they can rescue themselves. A self-rescuing vampire is not "being moved" - it "is moving".

As I was writing that, I just realized something. I am making the difference between "cannot" and "may not". The difference is largely forgotten in modern colloquial English, at least in the United States. "Cannot" technically means that it is not possible - it does not mean that is not permissible. "May not" means it is not permissible. Nowadays we ususally use "can't" for "may not". For example, "You can't go in ther" usually means that you don't have permission to go in there, not that it is impossible for you to go in there.

We already know that in VTES you can attempt actions that you cannot do, such as tapping a tapped minion. You cannot tap a tapped minion, but you may tap a tapped minion. Weird, isn't it? (However, that doesn't apply to combat effects. If a vampire can't use equipment during combat because of Drawing out the Beast, he can't attempt to use it, either.)

Hmm, interesting. So if Carver's said "Hostages may not be moved to the ready region or diablerized.", I don't think I would have had a question about it.

I think James was making the point that there is a difference between doing something that has no effect and doing something whose effect is illegal. His point is valid.

How do you differ unresolvable and illegal?

From my point of view, Graverobbing hostage is not illegal, this action just does not have effect, since it is not resolvable. It is callable tho. Just like tapping a tapped minion. You cannot use the effect of a card action you called, because some other state already in effect is still active.

Let's say a minion A plays Reality superior on a minion B with hostage counter, moving it to uncontrolled region. As a hostage B is reinfluenced - where does he move from uncontrolled region and what happens to his counter?

Reality
Type: Action
Requires: Chimerstry
Cost: 3 blood
[chi] Put Reality on a younger vampire. The vampire with this card cannot be the target of actions, cannot act (except to burn this card), cannot block and cannot cast votes. That vampire can burn Reality as a +1 stealth action.
[CHI] Move a tapped younger vampire to the uncontrolled region(breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire's blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, with any counters they have on them (those cards are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).

Gabrielle di Righetti
Clan: Tremere (group 5)
Capacity: 10
Disciplines: ANI AUS DOM THA obf pot
Camarilla Tremere Justicar: Gabrielle may steal 2 blood (or life) from a ready minion as a +1 stealth action.

Can she attempt to steal one blood from a minion that has only one blood?

Gabrielle di Righetti can steal blood, because "steal" actions have been ruled, in the past, to not care if the target amount of blood exists or not (i.e. you can steal 2 blood from a minion with 0 blood). Although I can't explain why you can't 'steal equipment' from a minion with no equipment (other than LSJ said so).

IANPB but for Reality vs Hostage Counters

The vampire goes uncontrolled with a hostage counter (uncontrolled region does not 'wash away' effects like the ash heap). So when it comes back out it is ready, since vampires with counters equal to their capacity enter the ready region at the end of the influence phase. If it ever goes to torpor it gains a second hostage counter and each counter requires burning 2 blood to remove.

Megabaja wrote:

I think James was making the point that there is a difference between doing something that has no effect and doing something whose effect is illegal. His point is valid.

How do you differ unresolvable and illegal?

That's an excellent question, and I believe that it is done on a case-by-case basis with rulings.

As I mentioned halfway through my long post, according to traditional English grammar "may not" means illegal while "cannot" means unresolvable (in this context).

When does "cannot" mean unresolvable and when does it mean illegal? It's really interesting since "can" and "may" have both been used in card text, implying that the "can" means "resolvable". But was "can" supposed to mean "may" every time?

It's a relevant question since resolution is a separate step from attempt in VTES.

Gabrielle's power says "may steal", so she has permission to try even if there are not two blood on the target. Because of rulings, anything that steals blood steals whatever is there up to the total amount permissible.

Juggernaut answered the question about Reality.

So when it comes back out it is ready, since vampires with counters equal to their capacity enter the ready region at the end of the influence phase.

Yes, but there's a catch. A minion with hostage counter cannot be moved to a ready region, as per Carver's text.

@AaronC: I do not think that people who wrote card text had that difference in mind. Generally, I think that card design varies greatly, from loose and easy level, to a grammar nazi level. I had a similar discussion with LSJ concerning difference between terms "equipment" and "equipment card". It ended when LSJ ruled they meant the same thing. I, for some reason, believed wrongly that term "equipment card" means "a type of card with that brownish borderline", while "equipment" meant literally piece of equipment on a minion, excluding locations and vehicles. Probably because I found difficult to understand how can Lucian steal Polaris Coach with a strike...

@megabaja: The counter has no effect while it is not on a controlled minion (e.g. Discipline cards which grant capacity) so it only takes effect again once the minion becomes controlled which is the same time it reaches the ready region. So it gets to the ready region.