"Cannot be moved" and Carver's Meat Packing and Storage

AaronC wrote:

As a matter of fact, there is nothing in the rules that requires you to target a specific piece of equipment when declaring a strike to steal (or burn) equipment.

I think you've had a brain fart... I know you are well aware of the general rule on playing cards.

Rulebook wrote:

The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

So the follow-up question is: why does Theft of Vitae target the minion and not the blood itself? Because blood is an attribute of the minion, part of it like capacity or disciplines, and not a card, person, place or thing.

Capacity, clan, sect, title, disciplines are attributes of the vampire.

Blood is the number of counters it has, just as life is the number of counters on an ally, etc.

An item of equipment is a card the vampire has.

So I find it incongruous that I could target a Sniper Rifle on a minion with Secure Haven, but I can't target their blood. Say something like Fleecing the Gaje vs Secure Haven.

I can use Fleecing the Gaje to take equipment and retainers, but I can't target the 1 blood of a minion, who has a Secure Haven. Same cards, 2 different results.

Secure Haven
Type: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location. Haven.
Put this card on a minion you control. This minion cannot be the target of other Methuselahs' actions. Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing master cards on (or that target) this minion. Burn this card if this minion enters torpor. A minion may have only one haven.

Fleecing the Gaje
Type: Action
Requires: Ravnos
Move a retainer, an equipment or 1 blood from a younger vampire controlled by another Methuselah to this Ravnos.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Blood is the number of counters it has, just as life is the number of counters on an ally, etc.

There is a subtle difference between the amount of blood a vampire has, an abstract concept, and the counters used to represent how much blood the vampire has. The counters are used to keep track of blood - putting them on the table does not make them targetable.

Each counter represents one blood. Why can I not target the counters instead of targeting the minion?

I can target the counters of Investments through a variety of effects. I can steal them (without stealing the location), I can burn them (without targeting the location) and so on.

But my point is still the same:
Why should a counter, even a blood counter, on a minion be immune to the effects of cards such as Fleecing the Gaje because of a Secure Haven... and the equipment not be immune?

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Each counter represents one blood. Why can I not target the counters instead of targeting the minion?

Well, for starters I imaging most cards say something like "steal x blood from a vampire" or similar.

Why get tied in knots over this sort of detail? Wrangling and twisting logic like this doesn't seem productive — surely there's more important parts of the game that could do with this sort of attention / time?

It would potentially eliminate a number of future rulings, it would push VTES closer to having keywording on cards.

Getting tied up in the inconsistencies, or the things which have only been resolved by "LSJ said so once on the Google Group" is valuable to the long-term health of VTES. It allows the designers to understand how they can write a card text to get a specific effect. It allows Pascal to easily understand designer intent (because the card would use specific/key phrases or words). It would give Princes and players certainty about how cards interact without having to have a ruling by Pascal.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a new card and from just reading the card (and maybe brushing up on keywords in the rulebook and/or CRR) you can feel confident about the functioning of the card with every existing card.