Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

So this time, I have question about:

Illusions of the Kindred

[Combat] Combat

[Chimerstry] Chimerstry

[2 Blood]

Only usable before range is determined.
[chi] Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does not contest any other minions or titles in play. The vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat.
[CHI] As above, but the vampire has an amount of blood equal to his or her capacity.

Lets say, that this vampire will send oposing vampire to torpor, is this vampire able to play amaranth?

Amaranth

[Combat] Combat

Only usable by a vampire who can commit diablerie. Only usable when the opposing vampire should go to torpor. Diablerize the opposing vampire instead. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.

And if able, what will hapen? I am thinking that it is possible to play this combo.

1) Is it possible to play this combo?

2) If it is possible, will blood hunt proceed before removing this vampire from the game?

3) If the blood hunt will proceed, the vampire will be burned before combat end and the vampire card will by removed from the game afterwards?

Silmegil wrote:

So this time, I have question about:

Illusions of the Kindred

[Combat] Combat

[Chimerstry] Chimerstry

[2 Blood]

Only usable before range is determined.
[chi] Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does not contest any other minions or titles in play. The vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat.
[CHI] As above, but the vampire has an amount of blood equal to his or her capacity.

Lets say, that this vampire will send oposing vampire to torpor, is this vampire able to play amaranth?

Amaranth

[Combat] Combat

Only usable by a vampire who can commit diablerie. Only usable when the opposing vampire should go to torpor. Diablerize the opposing vampire instead. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.

And if able, what will hapen? I am thinking that it is possible to play this combo.

1) Is it possible to play this combo?

Play Amaranth when the opposing vampire is going to torpor? Yes, even if your vampire is an Illusions of the Kindred.

Silmegil wrote:

2) If it is possible, will blood hunt proceed before removing this vampire from the game?

Yes. Diablerie and subsequent blood hunt is conducted before the end of combat.

Silmegil wrote:

3) If the blood hunt will proceed, the vampire will be burned before combat end and the vampire card will by removed from the game afterwards?

[EDIT] [LSJ 20040331] : The Illusions burned by the Blood Hunt referendum is burned, and not removed from the game.

The Illusion is either burned or removed from the game ([RTR 20001020]), as its controller chooses.

Are you changing this or just assuming that the controller is controlling the acting vampire? I know you are referrencing a link but that link does not corroborate your statement.

I think if the Illusion commits Diablerie in Combat, Combat Ends cause the other Vampire is burned and ther´s no more Combat. I think too that Diablerie Effekts, like gain Blood or Equipment ist Part of the Diablerie so that happend before the Illusion is removed from Game. But i think the Bloodhunt Referendum comes after Combat, cause it´s Part of the Action, but not Part of the Combat.

This is an interesting timing issue that I had never heard of. I always assumed that a vampire getting burned in combat got burned in the same timing window that the effect that caused it to burned got resolved. Thus, if a vampire got burned because of an Amaranth or blood hunt, it burned during the "Resolve Strikes" timing window, since that is when those things are resolved.

Does this ruling ([RTR 20001020]), say that vampires burned in combat actually get burned in the "Combat Ends" timing window? Does the burning wait until the end of combat, or does the end of combat happen earlier than normal?

The problem I see here is that the "Round Ends" timing window happens before the "Combat Ends" timing window. Even S:CE moves combat to the end of the round and not directly to the end of combat, which makes this ruling puzzling.

If a vampire getting burned triggers the "Combat Ends" timing window, then no Taste of Vitae can be played, since the "Round Ends" window must be skipped. (This is not relevant to the OP, since in his example, both vampires get burned.) If the "Round Ends" window is not skipped, then a player would not be able to choose the order of an Illusionary vampire being burned and/or getting removed from play, since the end of combat would clearly happen after the burning (burn -> round ends -> combat ends).

If the end of combat happens at the normal moment and vampires burn at that time, then burned vampires would have the opportunity to play "end of round" cards like Street Cred or Revelation of Wrath, and the opposing minion could play ToV, since the end of the round happens as normal.

The rulebook and rules reference indicate that minions are burned or go to torpor during damage resolution. If that is the case, then an Illusionary vampire who is burned during combat would go to the ash heap during damage resolution, followed by the press step being skipped (? - I'm not sure about that), the end of the round, and then the end of combat, which is when the Illusionary vampire is removed from the game based on the text of IotK.

Robert wrote:

The Illusion is either burned or removed from the game ([RTR 20001020]), as its controller chooses.

Are you changing this or just assuming that the controller is controlling the acting vampire? I know you are referrencing a link but that link does not corroborate your statement.

Thanks for pointing this out. The ruling doesn't apply in this case (it applies when the Illusions burn from agg damage). I re-searched and found this one: [LSJ 20040331] which reads that the Illusion burned by a Blood Hunt referendum is burned and put in the ash heap. This reverses the answer given earlier above [which I'll edit].