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file What is "a" block?

12 May 2016 16:13 - 12 May 2016 16:14 #76877 by Ankha
What is "a" block? was created by Ankha
This will be the debate of the week :p

I figure out quite clearly what is a block attempt, or an attempt to block.
I figure out also quite clearly what happens when a block attempt fails, or when the acting minion is blocked.

But a "block"? Does the sentence "the block fails" have a sense?

Game-wise, the "block" would be found in the instant when an attempt to block becomes successful, right before a minion is blocked.

But if the block fails, then the minion can't enter the "is blocked state", which is a condition for the the block moment to exist. Can a non-existing thing fail?

Game-wise, a minion with Aching Beauty blocked by an ally would cause the blocking Methuselah to lose 1 pool, and if the acting minion plays Psychomachia at [dai], then the "block fails" and the action continues. "Block fails" is in fact erroneous, it's a shortcut for "cancel the resulting combat if any, and continue the action". (Because the action WAS blocked in the first place, which means it is tainted for the NRA for instance).

"Block fails" looks like a quantic state where the action would be blocked AND not blocked, and should be avoided.

Feel free to discuss.
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Last edit: 12 May 2016 16:14 by Ankha.

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12 May 2016 17:48 #76878 by BenPeal
Replied by BenPeal on topic What is "a" block?
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12 May 2016 17:56 - 12 May 2016 17:57 #76879 by chrisn101
Replied by chrisn101 on topic What is "a" block?
Sounds about right to me.

I've always considered the block fail-type events to occur a micro-second after the block happens because they're very specifically timed - intercepting the action has been successful and both players involved are deciding whether normal combat will now occur.

Movie example: when the hero (love interest optional) hides in a crowded scene from The Bad Guys, who have pursued him/them and currently looking for them, something really fortuitous happens, like a random person just happens to walk in front of the hero and obscure The Bad Guys' view (or any other distraction).

So to me it's effectively block cancelling rather than block failing and I treat it as if it said that. No-one has perfect, accurate grammar and English 100% of the time.

So with Elder Impersonation , it's a case of the reacting minion seeing/hearing something/someone suspicious and going to investigate, only to see that it's actually an important-looking elder they don't want to trifle with. So they go back to whatever they were doing.

Phase-wise, I don't think the rules break it down to this degree, but I've always handled it as:
  • Acting minion decides to do something, but a legal reacting minion wants to stop it.
  • Acting minion stealth is compared with reacting minions' intercept.
  • 'Block successful' versus 'block failed' is correct when comparing intercept versus stealth. Let us assume that the reacting minions' intercept equals/exceeds the acting minions' stealth, so the action is successfully blocked.
  • There is an opportunity for the acting minion to cancel the block
    • If a card is played to cancel the block, the action continues as normal and the reacting minion is not tapped.
    • If the block is cancelled and a card like Faceless Night has been played by the acting minion, the reacting minion taps anyway.
    • If the block is not cancelled, the reacting minion taps and combat occurs.

Regarding Psychomania , it does specify:

Only usable when an ally or younger vampire successfully blocks before tapping the blocker.

Last edit: 12 May 2016 17:57 by chrisn101.

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12 May 2016 18:48 #76880 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic What is "a" block?

This will be the debate of the week :p

I figure out quite clearly what is a block attempt, or an attempt to block.
I figure out also quite clearly what happens when a block attempt fails, or when the acting minion is blocked.

But a "block"? Does the sentence "the block fails" have a sense?

Game-wise, the "block" would be found in the instant when an attempt to block becomes successful, right before a minion is blocked.

But if the block fails, then the minion can't enter the "is blocked state", which is a condition for the the block moment to exist. Can a non-existing thing fail?

Game-wise, a minion with Aching Beauty blocked by an ally would cause the blocking Methuselah to lose 1 pool, and if the acting minion plays Psychomachia at [dai], then the "block fails" and the action continues. "Block fails" is in fact erroneous, it's a shortcut for "cancel the resulting combat if any, and continue the action". (Because the action WAS blocked in the first place, which means it is tainted for the NRA for instance).

"Block fails" looks like a quantic state where the action would be blocked AND not blocked, and should be avoided.

Feel free to discuss.


Is "block" is a misnomer for "blocking attempt?" I think if you were to simply replace block with blocking attempt, in most cases, the issues you raise go away.
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12 May 2016 18:56 #76881 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic What is "a" block?

Phase-wise, I don't think the rules break it down to this degree, but I've always handled it as:
  • Acting minion decides to do something, but a legal reacting minion wants to stop it.
  • Acting minion stealth is compared with reacting minions' intercept.
  • 'Block successful' versus 'block failed' is correct when comparing intercept versus stealth. Let us assume that the reacting minions' intercept equals/exceeds the acting minions' stealth, so the action is successfully blocked.
  • There is an opportunity for the acting minion to cancel the block
    • If a card is played to cancel the block, the action continues as normal and the reacting minion is not tapped.
    • If the block is cancelled and a card like Faceless Night has been played by the acting minion, the reacting minion taps anyway.
    • If the block is not cancelled, the reacting minion taps and combat occurs.

Elder Impersonation can be played any time when a minion "attempts to block". So A could play a +1 stealth action, give the impulse to B to see if he attempts to block. B says "Bobby attempts to block", and before Bobby is allowed to add stealth, A can decide to play Elder Impersonation and make the block fail. There's no need for the blocking attempt to be currently successful.

One must be careful with Psychomachia because it was originally designed to be played "when... is attempting to block" (vtes.pl/card/Bloodlines/Psychomachia/41249)
But then the outferior Presence effect was estimated too strong, and the card switch to a card text supposed to make the action be blocked at pre, and not blocked at dai/DAI.

Is "block" is a misnomer for "blocking attempt?" I think if you were to simply replace block with blocking attempt, in most cases, the issues you raise go away.


In the Psychomachia case (or Phantom Speaker), the action is blocked so an Aching Beauty would trigger. But then the action is not blocked.
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12 May 2016 19:30 - 12 May 2016 19:30 #76882 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic What is "a" block?

Is "block" is a misnomer for "blocking attempt?" I think if you were to simply replace block with blocking attempt, in most cases, the issues you raise go away.

In the Psychomachia case (or Phantom Speaker), the action is blocked so an Aching Beauty would trigger. But then the action is not blocked.


Right. so it's not a misnomer. I agree that "cancel the resulting combat if any, and continue the action" is far superior to saying "the block fails."
Last edit: 12 May 2016 19:30 by TwoRazorReign.

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