What is "a" block?

13 May 2016 14:35 #76898 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic What is "a" block?

Non-existant user wrote:
Psychomachia was always restricted to ally and younger blockers, so weenies are not an issue. Besides, it does not change anything for a pure presence deck: if you acting at 0 stealth, anyone who attempts to block will succeed, so Psychomachia is playable anyway. The only situation I can think of where it is better not to wait for the opponent to play his intercept before you cancel the action is on a bounced stealthed bleed, and for that, once you give Tangle to and it is hard to argue that the same effect in (with extra generation restrictions) is overpowered for the Baali.

Maybe not weenie presence indeed due to the capacity restriction. But keep in mind that with the old text, you could do an action, add stealth and/or make people play their wakes, then cancel the action. And since the action was cancelled before it was blocked, you could do it again (NRA doesn't kick in). That's what Tangle Atropo's Hand allow you to do, but in Potence (or Temporis, which is a cheated discipline anyway).

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14 May 2016 01:49 #76914 by Boris The Blade

Replied by Boris The Blade on topic What is "a" block?

Ankha wrote:
And since the action was cancelled before it was blocked, you could do it again (NRA doesn't kick in).

Are you saying that with the new Psychomachia, the NRA kicks in? That is not what the card text says:

Only usable when an ally or younger vampire successfully blocks before tapping the blocker.
Cancel the current action and untap this acting vampire. The blocking minion is not tapped.

One cannot cancel an action that has already resolved, and the successful block is the action resolution. By the same logic that allows :dai:

Psychomachia to undo the block, :pre:

Psychomachia undoes the action resolution and the NRA does not kick in. The trigger of the card is common, there cannot be 2 different interpretations of the timing based on the effect.

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14 May 2016 09:32 #76915 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic What is "a" block?

Non-existant user wrote:

Ankha wrote:
And since the action was cancelled before it was blocked, you could do it again (NRA doesn't kick in).
Are you saying that with the new Psychomachia, the NRA kicks in? That is not what the card text says:
Only usable when an ally or younger vampire successfully blocks before tapping the blocker.
Cancel the current action and untap this acting vampire. The blocking minion is not tapped.
One cannot cancel an action that has already resolved, and the successful block is the action resolution. By the same logic that allows Psychomachia to undo the block, Psychomachia undoes the action resolution and the NRA does not kick in. The trigger of the card is common, there cannot be 2 different interpretations of the timing based on the effect.

I'll quote LSJ:

LSJ wrote:
> "Reaches resolution" means the action is either blocked or unblocked
> and successful.
Correct. [6.2.3]
www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3

So if you resolve the successful action or enter block-combat (or play some
other effect that is played when the action succeeds or when the action is
blocked), then the action has reached resolution.

and further reading:

LSJ wrote:
> Psychomachia "cancels" the action, so it can be taken again.
No. The action reached resolution in order for Psychomachia to be played.
Therefore the minion cannot repeat the action.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/qKrJPLXBFFw/fX0Dfz9LHOUJ

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14 May 2016 12:47 #76919 by Boris The Blade

Replied by Boris The Blade on topic What is "a" block?

If that is the designer intent, then the :pre:

effect needs to be reworded to copy Change of Target. LSJ errated the timing of the card but didn't realize that the effects had to be adjusted to take it into account.

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14 May 2016 17:23 - 14 May 2016 17:24 #76925 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic What is "a" block?

Non-existant user wrote:
If that is the designer intent, then the effect needs to be reworded to copy Change of Target. LSJ errated the timing of the card but didn't realize that the effects had to be adjusted to take it into account.

I agree that for homogeneity, it would be better. But as it is, the cardtext work the same in both cases*. Since Jyhad, Change of Target indicates that the minion can't perform the same action again because at that time, the NRA rule didn't exist.

*There's a corner-case difference: you could play a second Nocturn after playing Psychomachia, but not Change of Target.

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Last edit: 14 May 2016 17:24 by Ankha.

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20 May 2016 23:32 #76984 by Juggernaut1981

Replied by Juggernaut1981 on topic What is "a" block?

If you would trigger Aching Beauty, then clearly "a block" has occurred successfully.

However, at the play of the card, and after the "a block is successful" stuff has been dealt with, you can then load on "Block fails" stuff.

It sounds like you're trying to find new ways to parse the older stunt of:
Aching Beauty + Change of Target

It's all covered in the 'when playable' preamble.