file Mask of a 1000 faces and bleed modifiers

17 Jan 2019 18:06 #92976 by Ratadin
I have 2 questions (but specially one) about Mask of a thousand faces and action modifiers:

Mask of a Thousand Faces
Only usable by a ready, unlocked vampire other than the acting minion who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire.
[obf] Unlock the acting minion and lock this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire as the acting minion.
[OBF] As above, with +1 stealth.

So, we understand that this card allows the next play:

Vampire A bleeds
Vampire Z attempts to block
Vampire A plays Lost in crowds (2stealth)
Vampire Z gains +3 intercept
Vampire B plays Mask of a thousand faces at superior (3 stealth)
Vampire B plays Lost in crowds (5 stealth)

This is because even though MoaTF seems to imply that the modifying vampire becomes the acting vampire as if it had played every card played during the action, it doesn't specify so, and then the NRA rule cannot apply to it for modifiers played by the former acting minion, as it hasn't played those modifiers yet. So, just to confirm this, is this correct?

If so, this brings us to the next problem: bleed modifiers and the new ruling. Right now, the VTES rulebooks specifies that "A minion cannot use more than one action modifier card to increase a bleed during a bleed action. Some bleed action modifiers explicitly state that they do not count against this limit; those can be played before or after modifiers that count against the limit. This rule is reminded on some cards by the "(limited)" card text". Now, this is slightly different than the old wording that was included in every single card, which read "You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount.". This is, while the old one state that you (the mathuselah) could not play any other action modifier to increase the bleed, the new one states that each minion cannot play more than 1 action modifier to increase the bleed.

This interacts directly with the mask, as it would allow:

Vampire A bleeds with govern (3 bleed)
Vampire A plays Conditioning (6 bleed)
Vampìre B plays Mask of a thousand faces (6 bleed)
Vampire B plays Conditioning (9 bleed).

With the new wording there is another new interaction:

Empowering the Puppet King
Only usable during a bleed action. Only usable by a ready unlocked vampire other than the acting minion you control.
[dom] The acting minion gets +1 bleed (limited).
[DOM] As above, but usable by a ready locked vampire.

Empowering the Puppet King is not used by the acting minion, but by a different one, as so, even if the card doesn't have the exception allowing to play multiple bleed modifiers but reminds that the restriction is in place (using the "limited" reminder), the ruling doesn't actually affect it because, again, the rule only stops each minion from playing multiple action modifiers to increase the bleed. If so, with Empowering the Puppet King you could do:

Jake washingtong bleeds (0)
Vamp A uses EtPK (1)
Vamp B uses EtPK (2)
Vamp C uses EtPK (3)...

So, this feels off. I think this could have been a mistake when wording the new rule, and if so could be corrected, but if it is deliverate I would like to know it.

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17 Jan 2019 18:26 #92977 by kschaefer

This interacts directly with the mask, as it would allow:

Vampire A bleeds with govern (3 bleed)
Vampire A plays Conditioning (6 bleed)
Vampìre B plays Mask of a thousand faces (6 bleed)
Vampire B plays Conditioning (9 bleed).

This is not a new interaction. This is the way Mask has behaved all along.

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17 Jan 2019 19:09 #92980 by jamesatzephyr

This interacts directly with the mask, as it would allow:

Vampire A bleeds with govern (3 bleed)
Vampire A plays Conditioning (6 bleed)
Vampìre B plays Mask of a thousand faces (6 bleed)
Vampire B plays Conditioning (9 bleed).

This is not a new interaction. This is the way Mask has behaved all along.


No?

Card text of Conditioning, prior to the "(limited)" change is: "You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount." You is the player, not the minion.

[LSJ 20030404]

>>If Ranjan bleeds, and then plays a Conditioning, and then Arika plays a
>>Mask, can she play another Conditioning? Why or why not?
>
> No, she cannot play Conditioning.
>
> Card text on Conditioning prevents futher bleed modifiers from being
> played on the action.
>
> Pertinent card text:
>
> "After playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to
> further increase the bleed for this action."
>
>
> Both vampires can play Command of the Beast at superior though, and
> then the last vampire could play Conditioning.

Correct.

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17 Jan 2019 20:13 - 17 Jan 2019 20:13 #92987 by Ankha

So, we understand that this card allows the next play:

Vampire A bleeds
Vampire Z attempts to block
Vampire A plays Lost in crowds (2stealth)
Vampire Z gains +3 intercept
Vampire B plays Mask of a thousand faces at superior (3 stealth)
Vampire B plays Lost in crowds (5 stealth)

This is because even though MoaTF seems to imply that the modifying vampire becomes the acting vampire as if it had played every card played during the action, it doesn't specify so, and then the NRA rule cannot apply to it for modifiers played by the former acting minion, as it hasn't played those modifiers yet. So, just to confirm this, is this correct?

Correct, even if it has nothing to do with the NRA. Vampire A played Lost in Crowd. Vampire B played Lost in Crowd, nothing prevents it.

If so, this brings us to the next problem: bleed modifiers and the new ruling. Right now, the VTES rulebooks specifies that "A minion cannot use more than one action modifier card to increase a bleed during a bleed action. Some bleed action modifiers explicitly state that they do not count against this limit; those can be played before or after modifiers that count against the limit. This rule is reminded on some cards by the "(limited)" card text". Now, this is slightly different than the old wording that was included in every single card, which read "You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount.". This is, while the old one state that you (the mathuselah) could not play any other action modifier to increase the bleed, the new one states that each minion cannot play more than 1 action modifier to increase the bleed.

This interacts directly with the mask, as it would allow:

Vampire A bleeds with govern (3 bleed)
Vampire A plays Conditioning (6 bleed)
Vampìre B plays Mask of a thousand faces (6 bleed)
Vampire B plays Conditioning (9 bleed).

Incorrect. Vampire B is already "using" the +3 bleed from the first Conditioning. It cannot use another bleed-increasing effect provided by an action modifier card (rulebook).

With the new wording there is another new interaction:

Empowering the Puppet King
Only usable during a bleed action. Only usable by a ready unlocked vampire other than the acting minion you control.
[dom] The acting minion gets +1 bleed (limited).
[DOM] As above, but usable by a ready locked vampire.

Empowering the Puppet King is not used by the acting minion, but by a different one, as so, even if the card doesn't have the exception allowing to play multiple bleed modifiers but reminds that the restriction is in place (using the "limited" reminder), the ruling doesn't actually affect it because, again, the rule only stops each minion from playing multiple action modifiers to increase the bleed. If so, with Empowering the Puppet King you could do:

Jake washingtong bleeds (0)
Vamp A uses EtPK (1)
Vamp B uses EtPK (2)
Vamp C uses EtPK (3)...

Incorrect, for the same reason. "Playing" a card and "using" its effect are not the same.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 17 Jan 2019 20:13 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ratadin

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17 Jan 2019 20:15 #92988 by Ratadin
Ah, I didn't catch the use word here. Problem solved then. Thank you very much.

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18 Jan 2019 11:52 - 18 Jan 2019 11:53 #93011 by jamesatzephyr

Incorrect. Vampire B is already "using" the +3 bleed from the first Conditioning. It cannot use another bleed-increasing effect provided by an action modifier card (rulebook).


Is a vampire "using" +X bleed from the following action modifiers? I'm using the text from www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt , which has all the "(limited)" and "does not count against the limit" updates:

- Spying Mission:
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire would successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.

- Enkil Cog:
Put this card on this vampire. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire can lock this card to take an action. This vampire gets +1 bleed.

- Draught of the Soul, when it was played as an action modifier:
[aus][qui] This vampire gains 1 blood. Put this card on this vampire. The vampire with this card has +1 intercept.
[AUS][QUI] As [aus][qui] above, and this vampire gets +1 bleed when bleeding the controller of the burned vampire..

- Draught of the Soul, when played as a combat card but is now in play. This because of rulings such as [LSJ 20081224]

>> Is a dual card type considered both types at all times, or only the
>> relevant type when played?
>
> It is considered to be the relevant type when played.
>
>> ie: a combat/action card, is it considered a combat(or action) card at
>> all times, or only when played for the combat effect?
>
> It is considered a combat card whenever it is not being played instead
> as an action card.
>
> Basically, when you are in the act of playing it, it counts as
> whatever type and requirement you are playing it as.
>
> The rest of the time, it counts as all the options on it.
>
> For instance, Diversion counts as a card that requires Celerity when
> it's in your library or hand; when you play it to prevent damage
> you're playing it as a Fortitude card and thus it doesn't currently
> count as one requiring Celerity.

Correct.


- Taking the Skin: Minion, in both action modifier and combat forms as for Draught of the Soul:
Skin. Play when this vampire burns a minion. Put this card on this vampire and unlock him or her. This vampire may bleed an additional time this turn and gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. Burn this card during your discard phase. A minion can have only one skin.


Since they are action modifiers, if they are being used by the minion, it would seem simpler to change the wording of the rule to something like "Only one action modifier can be played on the action to... This is noted by (limited)." My reasoning for that is that for cards that go in play, they already have a chunk of extra text to deal with that, so avoiding the need for "which does not count against the limit" frees up that space. Generally that's much simpler on a straight-forward action modifier that says something like: "+1 bleed, which does not count against the limit."



Also, www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76595-rules-team-rulings-rtr-11-05-2018 suggests that Leverage should have had its card text changed, but the card list says:
Burn the Edge to get +1 bleed for this action. You cannot gain the Edge this action. If you would get the Edge, it is burned instead.
Last edit: 18 Jan 2019 11:53 by jamesatzephyr.
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