Play to win
26 Apr 2022 14:10 #105094
by Ankha
During the first day of the EC, I had to oust my predator with a back-KRC because he was taking too much time each turn (many minions, and he was also a bit drunk), and there were like 20 minutes left. So he ranted about it, arguing that I should move forward with the KRC rather than giving a free VP to my grand-predator.
Fact is my grand-predator was not that dangerous for me, I just wanted time to oust my own prey. Judge agreed.
It's a bit little your point 2/
Replied by Ankha on topic Play to win
I draw the line on ptw at plays directly leading to an ousting of not your prey.
But there are lots of reasons to oust cross table to improve the table situation for yourself.
Examples off the top of my head:
*) A vote deck may oust a wall deck cross table because it will be able to sweep the rest the table easily if it doesn't have to worry about the wall deck blocking it later.
*) Ousting some variety of gehenna event deck cross table might be needed to remove various events from play before doing a lunge.
*) Ousting a fast bleed deck cross table might be the only way it stop it getting the GW.
Nothing is ever completely black and white, and always depends on the decks, the exact table situation and judgment calls by the players involved.
This is also why it can be incredibly hard to judge PTW issues for someone who hasn't been observing the table.
During the first day of the EC, I had to oust my predator with a back-KRC because he was taking too much time each turn (many minions, and he was also a bit drunk), and there were like 20 minutes left. So he ranted about it, arguing that I should move forward with the KRC rather than giving a free VP to my grand-predator.
Fact is my grand-predator was not that dangerous for me, I just wanted time to oust my own prey. Judge agreed.
It's a bit little your point 2/
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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26 Apr 2022 14:25 - 26 Apr 2022 14:26 #105095
by Ankha
You cannot start enumerating the list of things you cannot do because it's an endless list. I started doing it, but at some point I had to give up. Among other things:
- can I vote in favor of a vote that is ousting me without giving me a VP?
- must I vote against?
- must I burn the Edge in that case?
- can I play an Anarch Revolt if I'm at 1 pool, and have no Anarch?
- same question with no ready vampire
- same question with no vampire at all
- same question if I plan to play Liquidation as a second master
- can I call a vote that ousts me, even if I plan to vote against?
- can I play Frontal Assault if it's certain / likely / unlikely it will oust me during my discard phase?
The best thing to do is to let the judge decide if the player is PTW or not based on the situation and the plans of the player.
PTW is about the intent, not the way things are done (a player can play to win and still make mistakes).
Replied by Ankha on topic Play to win
Probably some rule that prevent self ousting by influencing or something similar would already do wonders to prevent this kingmaking situations out of nowhere.
You cannot start enumerating the list of things you cannot do because it's an endless list. I started doing it, but at some point I had to give up. Among other things:
- can I vote in favor of a vote that is ousting me without giving me a VP?
- must I vote against?
- must I burn the Edge in that case?
- can I play an Anarch Revolt if I'm at 1 pool, and have no Anarch?
- same question with no ready vampire
- same question with no vampire at all
- same question if I plan to play Liquidation as a second master
- can I call a vote that ousts me, even if I plan to vote against?
- can I play Frontal Assault if it's certain / likely / unlikely it will oust me during my discard phase?
The best thing to do is to let the judge decide if the player is PTW or not based on the situation and the plans of the player.
PTW is about the intent, not the way things are done (a player can play to win and still make mistakes).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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27 Apr 2022 21:46 #105102
by self biased
In my experience, any player who is in such a position that transferring out seems like the best option for them, they should be allowed to do so because clearly they are not having any fun playing the game. Any sort of promise that one might get that their Predator might run out of Conditionings or Governs and then end up not winning the game if you make them play the cards feels bad if you've already been ousted.
Some people will gleefully go all in on a Pyrrhic Victory, and good for them, but saddling players with the obligation to make their predator play as many cards as possible to oust them can be just as much 'Kingmaking' as transferring out is; just in the other direction.
To put it another way: If you're complaining that you could have won the game, if an already ousted player made their predator play cards... that feels like a reach, and maybe you should "build better decks."
Replied by self biased on topic Play to win
I'm ok with all of those, my problem is with self ousting by influencing, if you read my description of the table i played, you'll see that allowing someone to just influence his last 4 pool out of nowhere at the end of the turn is way to easy to affect the vps in the table, the other methods that involving actions i'm not oposing those.
In my experience, any player who is in such a position that transferring out seems like the best option for them, they should be allowed to do so because clearly they are not having any fun playing the game. Any sort of promise that one might get that their Predator might run out of Conditionings or Governs and then end up not winning the game if you make them play the cards feels bad if you've already been ousted.
Some people will gleefully go all in on a Pyrrhic Victory, and good for them, but saddling players with the obligation to make their predator play as many cards as possible to oust them can be just as much 'Kingmaking' as transferring out is; just in the other direction.
To put it another way: If you're complaining that you could have won the game, if an already ousted player made their predator play cards... that feels like a reach, and maybe you should "build better decks."
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