question-circle The Capuchin burns & temporary control

17 Apr 2020 11:49 - 17 Apr 2020 12:00 #99618 by Kilrauko

...
- the only difference between "if" and "when/whenever" is that "when"/"whenever" indicates a condition to be fulfilled AND a timing at the same time, whereas "if" doesn't indicate the timing - it only indicates a condition. So all the following sentences are equivalent:
  • "when a minion is burned its controller burns 1 pool"
  • "whenever a minion is burned its controller burns 1 pool",
  • "after a minion is burned its controller burns 1 pool"
  • "if a minion is burned, its controller burns 1 pool after it happens" (the last sentence is a bit redundant, that's why it's not used in that case)
But you could consider:
  • "after a successful bleed action"
  • "if a bleed is successful, after resolution"
Which are the same.
...

TLDR:
"If The Capuchin is burned, move him to your uncontrolled region and you get +3 transfers at the start of your next influence phase."
="If The Capuchin is burned, move him to the uncontrolled region and you get +3 transfers at the start of your next influence phase."
= "If The Capuchin is burned, move him to his owner's uncontrolled region and you get +3 transfers at the start of your next influence phase."


I suspected it had to be some fundamental parts I was getting wrong, thank you for taking the time to lay it out clearly and highlighting the equivalent terms and explain in detail what the step order and timing of them is. The card behaving how it does is logically sound with those explanations. The "you" in the sentence is the same person, however what the Capuchin does after that by the inherit properties of the areas is what gave the impression that it targets two different people with the same term. This was compounded with my mistake on how the burn process behaves related to the "triggers." Dreams of Sphinx counters "if" was a good call that helped along with the Bane mummies. Mentioning them alone would not have helped as I had the impression the Mummies took the trip to the ash heap, then did their back to deck shenigans, so it was good that the process was laid out in detail and cleared up.

The last of the TL:DR's is clearest about it and it's what I would personally prefer in the cards with similar intent going forward, but at the same time I had wrong understanding of the timinings and fundamentals. To Players who were more familiar with timings it most likely was clear enough from the start and the change would be just unnecessary text changes with no merit so I'm not sure if it's needed. In fact with the intent laid clear here, I would say no.

Sorry for the time it took, especially if these timings have been explained in these forums/ website resources already and I've just blindly stormed past them. Thanks also for the insight on terminology used going forward with reasoning to boot.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 17 Apr 2020 12:00 by Kilrauko. Reason: (snippeti snip)

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17 Apr 2020 12:46 #99619 by Ankha

... as I had the impression the Mummies took the trip to the ash heap, then did their back to deck shenigans,

Indeed, they do.
Tutu is burned = Tutu goes to the ash heap.
So Tutu goes to the ash heap before being shuffled in the library.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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17 Apr 2020 14:48 #99620 by Ankha

So The Capuchin goes to "the" ash heap, which is his owner's ash heap per rule 1.1.2. This is already enough to break any temporary control. Since he goes to the ash heap, he is also "cleansed" from any permanent control change (for instance, if the Capuchin had been stolen from his owner O by B with a Graverobbing, and then T steals him temporarily with a Spirit Marionette and burns him in our scenario).
Then he goes to "the" uncontrolled region, that is his owner's uncontrolled region.


The highlighted part seems to be a reversal of the earlier ruling, that the Capuchin goes to his permanent controllers uncontrolled region instead of his owners ANK20200130 . I for one am totally confused now.


Correct, this is a REVERSAL.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: Yomyael

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