file The Question of the Month "ACTION FIZZLES"

23 Jan 2021 02:51 - 25 Jan 2021 05:42 #101485 by Sydnelson
What happen when an action fizzle? The acting minion can play Forced March after it? The minion can try the same action again? If the action has a cost, the minion needs to try to pay as much as possible to try to pay for the action?

Example 1
Minion A plays Harass against a tapped Minion B, Minion B with 8 blood plays Sense the Savage Way to unlock, Minion A play stealth and the action would be successful.

In this case the action fizzle since there is not a valid target, but what happen in the resolution of the action?
A - The action is successful (and a minion can play Freak Drive for example).
B - The action is successful as above, but its effect is not and Minion A can try the same action/card/effect again (in this example play Harass again).
C - The action is not successful.
D - The action is not successful, but if I manage to unlock, I can try the same action/card/effect again.
E - None of above answers


Example 2
Minion A with 2 blood bleeds with Dominate Kine, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the blood?
A - Minion A doesn't have 2 blood to pay for Dominate Kine, the action fizzle and he stay with 1 blood.
B - Minion A doesn't have 2 blood to pay for Dominate Kine, he tries to pay for the card as much as possible (with 1 blood) and end the action with no blood.


Example 3
Minion A with 1 blood bleeds with Force of Will, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the aggravated damage?
A - Minion A takes an aggravated damage.
B - Minion A not take the aggravated damage, since the card text is not applied.


Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?
A - The action was blocked (and Minion A can play superior Freak Drive for example).
B - The action is successful (and Minion A can play Forced March for example).
C - The action fizzle (resulting with the one of above examples answer).
D - The action is canceled without resolution (so Minion A can't play cards like Freak Drive).
E - As D above and Minion A can try the same action again if he manages to unlock.


Example 5 - (card says cancel the action, so the action has no resolution)
Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A plays Harass again in the same turn?
A - Yes
B - No


Example 6 - (card says cancel the action, so I can act again?)
Using Enkil Cog during another Methuselah turn, Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A act again in the same turn?
A - Yes
B - No


CARD TEXTS

Harass
Action
(D) Enter combat with a vampire who has 3 or fewer blood or with a locked minion. This acting minion gets 1 optional press, only usable to continue combat, during that combat.

Sense the Savage Way
Reaction
Requires a vampire with capacity above 6.
[ani] +1 intercept.
[ANI] Only usable by a locked vampire. This vampire unlocks and attempts to block.

Dominate Kine
Action
Cost 2 blood
[dom] +1 stealth action. (D) Bleed with +1 bleed.
[DOM] (D) Steal a location controlled by another Methuselah.

Conditioning
Action Modifier
Cost 1 blood
Only usable during a bleed action.
[dom] +2 bleed (limited).
[DOM] +3 bleed (limited).

Force of Will
Action
cost 1 blood
Only usable by a locked vampire.
[for] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed. After resolution, this vampire takes 2 unpreventable aggravated damage even if the action is blocked.
[FOR] As above, but with +2 bleed, and the acting vampire takes only 1 unpreventable aggravated damage.

Kiss of Ra, The
Action Modifier
Cost 3 blood
Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude [for] attempts to block this acting minion.
[for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat).
[FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor.

Tangle Atropos' Hand
Action Modifier
cost 1 blood
Only usable if a minion attempts to block.
[pot] Cancel the action and unlock this vampire. (The action is not blocked. Do not lock the blocking minion. )[tem] As [pot] above, and take the action card, if any, back in your hand (discard down afterward).
[TEM] As [tem] above, and this vampire gets +1 stealth on their next action this turn.

Enkil Cog
Action Modifier
Unique. Requires a vampire with capacity 10 or more. Only usable after resolution of a successful bleed against your prey. Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire can lock this card to take an action.

Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer


:adv: :camarilla: :vent: :obf: :pro: :tha: :DOM: :PRE: :cap8:
Prince of Rio de Janeiro

Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
Last edit: 25 Jan 2021 05:42 by Sydnelson.

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23 Jan 2021 20:52 - 23 Jan 2021 20:54 #101488 by Yomyael

Sydnelson wrote: What happen when an action fizzle? The action minion can play Forced March after it? The minion can try the same action again? If the action has a cost, the minion needs to try to pay as much as possible to try to pay for the action?

Example 1
Minion A plays Harass against a tapped Minion B, Minion B with 8 blood plays Sense the Savage Way to unlock, Minion A play stealth and the action would be successful.

In this case the action fizzle since there is not a valid target, but what happen in the resolution of the action?
A - The action is successful (and a minion can play Freak Drive for example).
B - The action is successful as above, but its effect is not and Minion A can try the same action/card/effect again (in this example play Harass again).
C - The action is not successful.
D - The action is not successful, but if I manage to unlock, I can try the same action/card/effect again.
E - None of above answers

A is correct according to this: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/umdINigMKqs

Sydnelson wrote:
Example 2
Minion A with 2 blood bleeds with Dominate Kine, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the blood?
A - Minion A doesn't have 2 blood to pay for Dominate Kine, the action fizzle and he stay with 1 blood.
B - Minion A doesn't have 2 blood to pay for Dominate Kine, he tries to pay for the card as much as possible (with 1 blood) and end the action with no blood.

From the General Rulings Page: B. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J

Sydnelson wrote:
Example 3
Minion A with 1 blood bleeds with Force of Will, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the aggravated damage?
A - Minion A takes an aggravated damage.
B - Minion A not take the aggravated damage, since the card text is not applied.

I have no clue.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?
A - The action was blocked (and Minion A can play superior Freak Drive for example).
B - The action is successful (and Minion A can play Forced March for example).
C - The action fizzle (resulting with the one of above examples answer).
D - The action is canceled without resolution (so Minion A can't play cards like Freak Drive).
E - As D above and Minion A can try the same action again if he manages to unlock.

Definitely D. If E is true I cannot say, and I didn't find a ruling on this, but it might be possible. www.blackchantry.com/2018/07/18/rules-team-rulings-rtr-19-07-2018/

Sydnelson wrote:
Example 5 - (card says cancel the action, so the action has no resolution)
Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A plays Harass again in the same turn?
A - Yes
B - No

In this case, definitely A. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/qKrJPLXBFFw/m/hE5z511E_PgJ

Sydnelson wrote: Example 6 - (card says cancel the action, so I can act again?)
Using Enkil Cog during another Methuselah turn, Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A act again in the same turn?
A - Yes
B - No


[...]


The vampire has to attempt another action immediately if the action is cancelled, or the opportunity to act is lost. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/MNmJu12AU8I/m/Pol1P9fWMmoJ

Prince of Bonn, Germany
Last edit: 23 Jan 2021 20:54 by Yomyael. Reason: added another ruling link

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24 Jan 2021 15:01 - 24 Jan 2021 15:05 #101492 by Ankha

Sydnelson wrote: What happen when an action fizzle? The action minion can play Forced March after it? The minion can try the same action again? If the action has a cost, the minion needs to try to pay as much as possible to try to pay for the action?


An action that fizzles is a successful action (= not blocked) whose effects cannot be applied because:
1/ the target (or ALL the targets) has become illegal during the course of the action
2/ things happened during the course of the action that prevent the action from happening*
3/ the cost of the action cannot be paid anymore

So, if the action is successful, one needs to check points 1 and 2. If the action fizzles because of 1/ or 2/, the action is not paid.
If the action fizzles because of 3/, the acting minion must pay as much as possible, and the action fizzles.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/V3uIITe1wug/m/P-WH48zhoc8J

*: for instance, the minion with a Bomb uses the Bomb action to burn a location, but doesn't have the Bomb anymore upon resolution.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 1
Minion A plays Harass against a tapped Minion B, Minion B with 8 blood plays Sense the Savage Way to unlock, Minion A play stealth and the action would be successful.

In this case the action fizzle since there is not a valid target, but what happen in the resolution of the action?
A - The action is successful (and a minion can play Freak Drive for example).

The action was not blocked, so it's successful. It fizzles because of 1/ (no valid target).

Sydnelson wrote: Example 2
Minion A with 2 blood bleeds with Dominate Kine, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the blood?
B - Minion A doesn't have 2 blood to pay for Dominate Kine, he tries to pay for the card as much as possible (with 1 blood) and end the action with no blood.

Correct. The action fizzles because its cost cannot be paid (3/) and the acting vampire pays as much as possible.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 3
Minion A with 1 blood bleeds with Force of Will, after no block for their prey Minion A plays Conditioning that costs 1 blood.

In this case the action fizzle since there is no blood on the acting minion to pay for it, but what with the aggravated damage?
A - Minion A takes an aggravated damage.

Effects that are not related to the resolution of the action ("after resolution") are applied. The minion takes the aggravated damage.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?

The action was not blocked ("attempts to block"), so it did not reach resolution. It ends, so the action is over. The acting minion cannot play Freak Drive since there is no more ongoing action.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 5 - (card says cancel the action, so the action has no resolution)
Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A plays Harass again in the same turn?
A - Yes

The action was not blocked ("attempts to block"), so it did not reach resolution. Therefore, the no repeat action (NRA) rule does not apply, and minion A can play the same action again.

Please not that it has nothing to do with ending or canceling an action.

The only difference is that an "ended" Force of Will will still inflict the aggravated damage to the acting minion, whereas a "canceled" Force of Will will not.

Sydnelson wrote: Example 6 - (card says cancel the action, so I can act again?)
Using Enkil Cog during another Methuselah turn, Minion A plays Harass, Minion B blocks, so Minion A plays Tangle Atropos' Hand at superior Temporis. Can Minion A act again in the same turn?
B - No

No, not using the Enkil Cog. The action was performed (counting against the number of "veiled" actions by a Veil the Legion), albeit canceled later on.
This is different from canceling the action card "as it is played" in which case the Enkil Cog'ed minion could immediately perform another (or the same with another copy of the action card) action.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 24 Jan 2021 15:05 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kiddo, lip

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24 Jan 2021 16:36 #101493 by Sydnelson

Ankha wrote:

Sydnelson wrote: Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?

The action was not blocked ("attempts to block"), so it did not reach resolution. It ends, so the action is over. The acting minion cannot play Freak Drive since there is no more ongoing action.


Thanks for answers Ankha. In the above case, if the minion manages to unlock (with Mylan or Abdelsobek for example) he can perform the same action again?

Example:

Minion A bleed with Legal Manipulations and play Kiss of Ra in response of block. Mylan unlock Minion A.

Can Minion A play Legal Manipulations again?

Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer


:adv: :camarilla: :vent: :obf: :pro: :tha: :DOM: :PRE: :cap8:
Prince of Rio de Janeiro

Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

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24 Jan 2021 18:00 #101494 by Ankha

Sydnelson wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Sydnelson wrote: Example 4 - (card says the action ended, but no says what its resolution)
Minion A plays Kiss of Ra against another vampire. What happen with the resolution of the action?

The action was not blocked ("attempts to block"), so it did not reach resolution. It ends, so the action is over. The acting minion cannot play Freak Drive since there is no more ongoing action.


Thanks for answers Ankha. In the above case, if the minion manages to unlock (with Mylan or Abdelsobek for example) he can perform the same action again?

Example:

Minion A bleed with Legal Manipulations and play Kiss of Ra in response of block. Mylan unlock Minion A.

Can Minion A play Legal Manipulations again?

Yes, since the first action did not reach resolution.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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