file The Question of the Month "ACTION FIZZLES"

15 Feb 2022 14:29 - 16 Feb 2022 06:52 #104688 by inm8

I mean, taking the rest of Ankha's statement into consideration doesn't change the meaning of the quoted portion


Disagree, the below two mean two different things:

1) An action that fizzles is a successful action
Here the sentence means that - "An action that fizzles" results in "a successful action" (which is not correct)

2) An action that fizzles is a successful action (= not blocked) whose effects cannot be applied because: reasons 1,2,3
Here the sentence means that - "An action that fizzles" is what happens to an action that "is a successful action" when the "effect cannot be applied" because of reasons 1,2,3

And LSJ used a minion leaving torpor as another example, where continuing the action as if unblocked was not at all part of the example, so that ruling was not about continuing action as if unblocked


It was the linked ruling given by you with the given scenario/question (continue the action as if unblocked) that the answer related to and was the first mention of the "actions that fizzle when failing the readiness check" that is continuously done throughout the action.

Highlight with bold done by me.

> I control Warsaw Station.
> I have a Nosferatu with an Ambulance.
>
> My Nos performs an action that gets blocked.
> The blocker sends my Nos to torpor.
> Can I burn Warsaw Station, and then tap the Ambulance to continue
> the action?
No. The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.

If Warsaw Station prevented the trip to torpor altogether, it could work. But it
gets there too late.

So if your ally with an Ambulance was acting and got blocked and got burned in
combat but your cross-table buddy played Left for Dead on the ally, the ally
could use the Ambulance to continue the action. Of course, if the action was
blocked again, burning the Ambulance would be the least of the ally's worries.


In this scenario, the acting minion is blocked i.e. action has reached resolution and is unsuccessful.
During the block resolution, the acting minion is sent to torpor.
The question is if Warsaw Station can be used to bring back the acting minion to the ready region and then use the Ambulance to "continue the action as unblocked"

The answer from LSJ´s first two sentences is "No" followed by an explanation of why not.
This part "If that check ever fails, the action fizzles." even though correct is what has created the confusion. If there is or would be a card or effect that could make a minion fail the readiness check prior to reaching the action resolution it would mean the action is not successful.

Whether the action is to be considered as "failing" or "ending" in the case of "fizzling" prior to reaching resolution would be important in regards of NRA and the ability to play modifiers and reactions. Based on an earlier post from LSJ in the same thread (the ruling linked) it seems the action is to be considered ended.

Ankha any thoughts on the above?

The contradiction I'm trying to clarify here is:
- Ankha said an action must be successful to fizzle (with conditions provided)
- LSJ ruled that an action does not need to be successful (i.e. resolve unblocked) to fizzle


Disagree, nowhere here does Ankha state that an action must be successful to be able to fizzle or that only successful actions can fizzle.
The two statements (LSJ´s and Ankha`s) don´t contradict, it is your interpretation that causes the contradiction.

The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.

An action that fizzles is a successful action (= not blocked) whose effects cannot be applied

Last edit: 16 Feb 2022 06:52 by inm8.

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18 Feb 2022 11:31 - 18 Feb 2022 15:01 #104697 by Ankha

Thread resurrection!

Following on to your above clarifications, I have a follow-up question:
This suggests that an action can fizzle before it reaches resolution

The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.


In this case, does the action still count as successful?


There are three scenarios to consider (we'll consider that the acting minion is a Nosferatu in all of them):

1/ the acting Nosferatu performs a successful political action, Yawp Court is used before the referendum is called (YC cardtext) and the acting Nosferatu is sent to torpor during combat, then moved to the ready region after combat with the Warsaw Station.

2/ the acting Nosferatu is blocked, sent to torpor during combat, then moved to the ready region after combat with the Warsaw Station.

3/ the acting Nosferatu is in torpor and performs a Rapid Healing action. A minion attempts to block, and the Warsaw Station is used before the block attempt succeeds to move the Nosferatu to the ready region.

(there's also a variant 2'/ the acting Nosferatu has 1 blood and is blocked, plays sup. Form of Mist in combat, opponent plays sup. Catatonic Fear, the Nosferatu burns 1 blood to continue the action, then takes 1 damage from the Catatonic Fear that sends them to torpor before coming back to the ready region with the Warsaw Station).

In scenario 1, making a trip through the torpor region forbids the acting Nosferatu from conducting the referendum or continuing the action, rather than making the action fizzle or end. The reason is that the action has already resolved (it was successful) and it cannot resolve successfully AND unsuccessfully (because it either fails or ends) at the same time.

In scenario 2, making a trip through the torpor region forbids the acting Nosferatu from continuing the action, rather than making the action fizzle or end. Same reason as above (the action was blocked, it cannot fizzle because it cannot be unsuccessful and successful).

In scenario 3, the action has not reached resolution yet when the Warsaw Station is used. Moving from the torpor region to the ready region breaks the unreadyness requirement of the action, and we consider that the action fizzles immediately: it is successful (it was not blocked) but its effects cannot be applied because "2. things happened during the course of the action that prevent the action from happening*" (see the definition of "fizzle" I provided earlier )
In that scenario, the block attempt does not resolve, and the acting Nosferatu can play Freak Drive inferior.

About LSJ's answers: This is how LSJ's statement about the action "fizzling" or "ending" must be understood, I suspect an inaccurate choice of words since he uses both and they don't have the same meaning rule-wise. Furthermore, he indicates that Freak Drive could be played , which is not consistent with the definition of "ending an action" (it would rather be "failing").

To summarize: if the action has already resolved, it keeps its resolution status (successful or not) and cannot be continued.
If the action has not resolved yet and the readyness requirement of the action is no longer met at some point, the action fizzles immediately (and cannot be continued; see the definition of fizzle => it is successful, Freak Drive can be played at inferior).

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Last edit: 18 Feb 2022 15:01 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: the1andonlime, inm8, lip

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20 Feb 2022 07:01 - 20 Feb 2022 07:02 #104704 by the1andonlime
It's great to have a clear ruling that only successful (aka unblocked) actions can fizzle
This also keeps NRA effects on fizzled actions clear

Thanks, Ankha!


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Last edit: 20 Feb 2022 07:02 by the1andonlime.

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