file The Question of the Month "ACTION FIZZLES"

15 Feb 2022 08:25 - 15 Feb 2022 13:33 #104681 by inm8

Thread resurrection!

Following on to your above clarifications, I have a follow-up question:
This suggests that an action can fizzle before it reaches resolution

The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.


In this case, does the action still count as successful?



No, if an action fizzles before being blocked/reaching resolution the action wouldn´t count as successful (it has to reach resolution unblocked for it to do so).

No card/effect comes to mind that can actually make an action fizzle before being blocked/reaching resolution.

An action is only considered successful if it isn´t blocked and reaches resolution (note that it doesn't mean it needs to actually resolve successfully i.e it could fizzle for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread).
Last edit: 15 Feb 2022 13:33 by inm8.

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15 Feb 2022 08:33 #104682 by the1andonlime
I'm just trying to reconcile this rule clarification with Ankha's clarification:

An action that fizzles is a successful action...


As to

No card/effect comes to mind that can actually make an action fizzle before being blocked/reaching resolution.

example in the earlier link to LSJ's ruling


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15 Feb 2022 09:42 - 15 Feb 2022 09:44 #104683 by inm8

I'm just trying to reconcile this rule clarification with Ankha's clarification:

An action that fizzles is a successful action...


The examples given are all for actions that fizzle when/while reaching resolution that are caused by any of the below reasons (reaching resolution unblocked is what makes them being considered successful actions, this does not include actions fizzling prior to reaching resolution):

An action that fizzles is a successful action (= not blocked) whose effects cannot be applied because:
1/ the target (or ALL the targets) has become illegal during the course of the action
2/ things happened during the course of the action that prevent the action from happening*
3/ the cost of the action cannot be paid anymore

So, if the action is successful, one needs to check points 1 and 2. If the action fizzles because of 1/ or 2/, the action is not paid.
If the action fizzles because of 3/, the acting minion must pay as much as possible, and the action fizzles.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/V3uIITe1wug/m/P-WH48zhoc8J

*: for instance, the minion with a Bomb uses the Bomb action to burn a location, but doesn't have the Bomb anymore upon resolution.



As to

No card/effect comes to mind that can actually make an action fizzle before being blocked/reaching resolution.

example in the earlier link to LSJ's ruling


The ruling is about trying to "continue the action as if unblocked" which one cannot in the given scenario because the action has ended. The acting minion has gone to torpor and the effect of Warsaw Station cannot interrupt/get in between the minion going to torpor and the actual action end. Because of this, the acting minion cannot use the Ambulance before the use of WS because the minion isn't ready (which is a requirement to be able to continue the action) nor after the use of WS because then the action has ended and isn't there anymore to be able to be resumed/continued.
I would argue that there isn´t really a notion of an action fizzling before being blocked/reaching resolution in this scenario, my best guess is that it was to try to explain why the Ambulance cannot be played before the use of WS. Would have been enough of an explanation to say "because the minion is not ready it cannot try to continue the action".
Last edit: 15 Feb 2022 09:44 by inm8.

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15 Feb 2022 09:52 #104684 by the1andonlime
I'll wait for Ankha's clarification

His ruling was

An action that fizzles is a successful action

No matter how you read it, for an action to fizzle, it must first be successful

I think you're misreading it as "an action that fizzles can be successful"

Your second point about what the example in LSJ's ruling was about does not negate his ruling of

The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.



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15 Feb 2022 11:10 #104686 by inm8

I'll wait for Ankha's clarification


Good choice, he is the one that has the final say.

His ruling was

An action that fizzles is a successful action

No matter how you read it, for an action to fizzle, it must first be successful

I think you're misreading it as "an action that fizzles can be successful"


I read it as what is being answered by Ankha, you can´t just snip part of it as that changes the meaning of it.

An action that fizzles is a successful action (= not blocked) whose effects cannot be applied because:


Furthermore, I commented that I can´t come up with a card or effect that can make an action fizzle before reaching resolution....there are plenty of cards and effects that cause an action to end before resolution which I think is used as the template when that is the intended effect.

I might be wrong here and haven´t prior to this said it but I think fizzling is only possible for successful actions, let´s see what Ankha says about it.

Your second point about what the example in LSJ's ruling was about does not negate his ruling of

The (ready-minion-requiring) action continually checks the acting minion's
readiness. If that check ever fails, the action fizzles.


You might be right and I wrong, but I do believe that you need to take the question/scenario and the rest of the answer into consideration when reading the ruling and what is actually says and means...again one can´t just snip part of it and say that is the ruling...it is normally more complex than that, also LSJ is trying to explain why he is ruling as he is to educate the players.

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15 Feb 2022 12:29 #104687 by the1andonlime
I mean, taking the rest of Ankha's statement into consideration doesn't change the meaning of the quoted portion

And LSJ used a minion leaving torpor as another example, where continuing the action as if unblocked was not at all part of the example, so that ruling was not about continuing action as if unblocked

The contradiction I'm trying to clarify here is:
- Ankha said an action must be successful to fizzle (with conditions provided)
- LSJ ruled that an action does not need to be successful (i.e. resolve unblocked) to fizzle


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www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

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