file Mirror walk and slave

22 Jun 2021 06:52 #102544 by Timo
Mirror walk and slave was created by Timo
The question is simple : 
In case of a played sup Mirror Walk and a successfull block, does the acting minion as a timing to use the slave trait to unlock ?
And would there still be a combat ?

We ruled that both answers are "No" but we would like a confirmation.

Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

 

Slave rules :
Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead.


I found this LSJ ruling about mirror walk timing :

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ
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23 Jun 2021 09:05 - 23 Jun 2021 09:07 #102555 by Rémi
Replied by Rémi on topic Mirror walk and slave
Dear Timo,

I would say Mirror Walk ends the action first. I understand that, if there is no block resolution, there is no combat so it is not possible to unlock the acting minion using the Slave Advantage,

From the online rulebook of this web page:
3. Resolve the Action
(...)
If the action is blocked, then any card played to perform the action is burned and the block is resolved with these two simultaneous consequences: the blocking minion is locked and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat).

If an effect ends the action before the block resolution or one of these two consequences (such as entering combat), neither consequence occurs.
(...)

Regards,
Rémi.

I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (SPAIN). I was the Prince of Lyon (FRANCE) in 2003 :)
Join us to enjoy the Card Captors BCN gaming events : www.facebook.com/CardCaptorsBCN/
Last edit: 23 Jun 2021 09:07 by Rémi.
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23 Jun 2021 15:30 #102557 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Mirror walk and slave
For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.
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23 Jun 2021 15:53 - 23 Jun 2021 15:54 #102558 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Mirror walk and slave

For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.

I´m with Remi, the time windows are different, Mirror Walk ends the action before block resolution while the slave rule effect cancels the combat which would mean it triggers when entering combat which is part of the block resolution. 
Last edit: 23 Jun 2021 15:54 by inm8.
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23 Jun 2021 21:06 #102559 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Mirror walk and slave

For the sake of argument, it looks to me that both effect have the same timing (before block resolution). It could simply be up to the acting Methuselah to decide if they're locking their slave or not before Mirror's Walk effect kicks in.

I´m with Remi, the time windows are different, Mirror Walk ends the action before block resolution while the slave rule effect cancels the combat which would mean it triggers when entering combat which is part of the block resolution. 

I am also on this team ^^
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23 Jun 2021 22:27 - 23 Jun 2021 22:39 #102560 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Mirror walk and slave
Unless the Slave mechanics have changed, it's always been the acting minion's controllers ability to choose if they wish to choose order of effects that are happening at the same time. As has been the ability to choose when the action is "blocked". Now for effects happening at the same time, including Change of Target and Slave rule, LSJ goes into over this topic back in 2009 groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gHxAgyP15Vo/m/ogFybBQmaD0J  

> On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ < > wrote:
>> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
>> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
>> Obedience).
>
> I'm not sure I get it.

The acting Methuselah makes the block successful, not the blocking Methuselah.
That point addresses your previous query.
________

 > Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
> 1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
> vampire.
> You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
> everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
> Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..

when a block is successful, yes.
________

 > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> Maze,Yes.> .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)

? Obedience is in that list.Of course, it ends the action, so if you want to play "those two", you'd have to
play them first. And, of course, VoM cancels combat (thwarting Obedience's
requirement) and MM ends the action (precluding playing other cards after).
________

 > a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
>
> At this point, minions are about to enter combat.

Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
successful.
________

> b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)These were all options in a1.

There is no separate b1.
________
 > b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
> Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
> But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
> successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,> Yawp Court.)

These are part of a2.
________

> Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> clear:
> If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> Banshee Ironwail?

You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (justlike the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).

It's the acting Methuselah that has the option to choose when the action is blocked, aka they no longer play any cards for stealth or use other effects. After that per order of play ABC(acting, blocking, clockwise) gets the say on what effects to trigger as the action is blocked. LSJ is quite clear on when the "about to enter combat" happens, it is tied to acting methuselah declaring block succesful. Note Change of Target and compare it's wording to Mirror Walk;

Name: Change of Target
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4, FB:PTo4, V5:PTo2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
Unlock this minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.
Artist: Dan Frazier; Chris Stevens

________

Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

________

Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead. 

And note how Change of Target sits next to Slave rule. And by extension, so does Mirror walk. All call for "is blocked", that the acting methuselah decides and has the sequenced right to act first and choose what to trigger first.

Now granted, things might have changed since 2009, Slave rule might have been modified, as could have happened with the card texts, but until proven otherwise, this is still how things are.

So TL:DR
Controller of the acting minion can choose timing and can use the slave rule to unlock before superior Mirror Walk action end.

The Resulting combat is different then the one tied to the block resolution as the slave was never blocked and instead just enters the combat with the blocker. This also means if the blocker is a vampire it cannot escape with reaction Obedience as the slave gargoyle is not acting younger vampire.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 23 Jun 2021 22:39 by Kilrauko. Reason: New quoting creates horrible copy-paste results...

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