file Mirror walk and slave

25 Jun 2021 21:18 #102568 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Mirror walk and slave
Thanks for the heads up Ankha, eagerly awaiting your answer. 

Also i want to say thanks to all of you participating in the discussion for presenting your arguments and thoughts which i find very interesting and valuable as it provides different points of views. It is clear one has always more to learn in this game and your shared research and conclusions help a lot in understanding how and why things work as they do. 

Kilrauko post=102563Please note that nothing in Mirror Walk says it prevents the acting Methuselah from choosing what effects happen in what order during the same step. It does not in fact say action "immediately ends" but instead per card text; "...end the action before block resolution."  As long as the action has not ended, controller can play action modifiers and other methuselah can play reaction cards in addition to usage of various effects. If you wish for that kind of effect, check Kiss or Ra and Obedience;

Name: The Kiss of Ra [AH:U5, FN:PR, CE:PV, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PI] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 3 blood Discipline: Fortitude Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude [for] attempts to block this acting minion. [for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat). [FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor. Artist: Sandra Everingham
____
Name: Obedience
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:PV, CE:U, Third:U, HttB:PKia3, SP:PoS2]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
[dom] Unlock the acting vampire and end the action. (Do not lock this vampire if they are blocking.) The acting vampire cannot take the same action this turn.
[DOM] As above, but do not unlock the acting vampire.
Artist: Ron Spencer; L. A. Williams; Oliver Meinerding


that end the action right as their effect resolves, instead waiting for "before block resolution." If design intent for Mirror Walk was to somehow prevent effects and cards being played, it would be worded differently. 

You are absolutely right that the rules nor the card text doesn't dictate the sequence of effects during the same step nor do they say that the action ends immediately for the "end the action" effects...no one has said it does....but the ruling from LSJ 20071015  says it does end immediately or rather as soon as the action is blocked. 
There is a number of rulings insinuating and/or explicitly say that "end the action" effects are immediate which when going into effect close the window for any further modification, reaction and/or effect to be played/triggered. 

Kiss of Ra nor Obedience say anything of immediately ending the action still they do...that Mirror Walk say "...lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution" places the resolution of this earlier played effect that is siting in limbo awaiting to see if the stealth provided will either allow the action to succeed making it fizzle or to provide a way out of the block resolution (mainly the combat) by ending the action before it as a defensive part of the effect...don't see why Mirror Walk´s end of action would be any different just because it has been placed with precision between the acting player choosing the action to be considered blocked and before the block resolution. 

Kilrauko post=102563

What's more, there is no "immediate" effect that runs away from controlling methuselah somehow past their grasp, they're the ones who choose and declare it when it happens. This is laid out in detail in the www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary

PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]
...
B. Declare the effect.

  1. Fully announce the effect (as applicable: the minion playing/using it, targets, cost, and so on). If the effect is a card, play the card to the playing area.
  2. You cannot play a card or use an effect whose cost cannot be paid.
  3. For cards, this step (II.B) is the "as played" window.
    1. Cards that can cancel a card "as it is played" can be played at this time, as can Wake-style cards whose effects grant the ability to play those effects.
    2. Other cards and effects cannot be used at this time.
    3. If the card is canceled, skip to step D.
  4. For cards, your hand size is reduced by 1 until you replace the card (step D).

Please note how other cards and effects aside from "as it is played cancels" cannot be used before it starts to resolve...

C. Replace the card (after handling all pending "as played" windows).
1. If the card text says not to replace until later (and is wasn't canceled as played), then your hand size is effectively reduced until the card is replaced. (I.E.2)
2. If a card is canceled, any "do not replace" clause on it is canceled as well.

D. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B).
...
3. For all other cards, pay cost to resolve effect immediately.
a. Pay cost.
b. Resolve effect.
c. Action modifiers and reaction cards that may be put in play depending on the success of the action (or of a block attempt) are "in limbo" until that is determined. [RTR]

And once the effect is resolving, well, things go as they do, any other riding effects that are no longer valid, well, they're no longer valid. They're the strikes with Bang Nakh when opponent has released Canine Hordes with first strike.

If you need further consolation on things being how I present them, please note 2009 is later then 2007, and we tend to go with the latest relevant ruling as opposed to the earliest. Hence why I specifically mentioned if someone produces more recent ruling relating to the matter, that makes my post moot. Change in the terminology of Chance of Target and/or Slave rule also might affect, as those are referenced but not provided the exact wording. For Mirror Walk we're only interested in the current wording, as it used to be different in 3rd edition printing. This might also be reason why LSJ has answered regarding Mirror Walk as he did back in 2007, when the wording was as follows;

Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, the action ends (with no combat).
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

Note how the placement of *when* action ends changes and how that version of Mirror Walk is more similar to current Kiss of Ra. After the "the action ends" effect is resolved, nobody can play action modifiers or reactions anymore unless The Golden Rule for Cards says otherwise. The Current Mirror Walk ends the action *before* block resolution. Per detailed play there are multiple steps between "declare block succesful" and "resolve block" that enable playing cards and effects provided they're valid for that window. The Window being "is blocked".

3. If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. [6.2.3]
a. The cost of the action is not paid. The action card, if any, is burned.
b. Lock blocking minion.
c. If the acting minion was acting from the ready region, he enters combat with the blocking minion (VI)
d. If the acting minion was acting from torpor and the blocking minion is a vampire, the blocker may diablerize the acting vampire. (VIII) [6.5.2]

E. Action ends (after all combats and other effects to be applied to the action are resolved).
NOTE: Action modifiers may be played only by the acting minion at any time in the above sequence as allowed by the card. Any cost for playing the modifier is paid immediately. [6.2.3] The same minion may not use the same action modifier again in the current action. [1.6.3.2] Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]

Naturally the acting methuselah can play also choose and play other appropiate effects then just action modifiers, otherwise they could not declare the superior Mirror Walk to happen (it does not declare itself.)
 

As far as i understand the card text changes to Mirror Walk it changes when the effect is resolved which now is between the acting player choosing that the action is blocked and the block resolution step aka "before the block resolution" (which isn't mentioned at all in the Detailed Play Summary nor in the rulebook and isn't an actual step but a time window between steps) and it now explicitly locks the blocking minion instead of being locked by the fact that the blocking minion entered the block resolution step which means the ruling from LSJ 20071015  is still relevant even though old....
In the LSJ 20071015 ruling the question is whether the triggering of another effect when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked while Mirror Walk´s effect to "end the action" is in limbo from previously playing it for stealth at superior is possible or not and has been ruled as not possible. That the ruling say it isn't possible insinuates that the effect "end the action" is immediate (when the condition for it is met, which in this case is when the acting minion is blocked) as it doesn't allow further modifications, reactions and or effects to be played ....which to me makes perfect sense aligning it to the same handling of the other "end the action" effects....furthermore the ruling provided from LSJ 20090513  which links to a number of others don´t negate  LSJ 20071015 .

That we go with the latest ruling for the relevant card text i think is clear for most of us and also that the current wording of Mirror Walk is the only one of interest for this discussion (though i don´t think the change in wording invalidates LSJ 20071015 ruling) i also think is assumed by most of us but thanks for pointing it out. 

All the "steps" you refer to between "declare block successful" and "resolve block" is what is referred to as the "block resolution" and is one step with a number of things/actions happening and they happen simultaneously even though listed in bullet/letter points. 

The declaration of superior Mirror Walk is done by the acting player as part of playing it for stealth in the previous stage when the active player had priority/impulse and the effect is in limbo awaiting the conclusion of the block attempt....so no it doesn't happen by/declare itself.

Kilrauko post=102563

Overall this showcases why it's important to understand and seek the context surrounding ruling instead blindly following it as the way cards are worded has changed over the years. It's also why one needs to be open for being proven wrong, for all I know I'm quoting outdated information that no longer applies. But until someone does that, I'm quite content with my reasoning on this.


No one so far has been arguing that is just because the ruling says so and posts do show that real thought and consideration has been taken when presenting the different points of views and how they are concluded/motivated....i fully agree that the understanding of the rationale of the rulings are very important when discussing the rules ...specially as it has and keeps on evolving with re-wordings etc.

I have been wrong in the past and i´m entirely ok with it if i am....the only interest for me is and should be for us all is to get to the correct answers/conclusion what ever it is. 
 
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25 Jun 2021 23:59 #102569 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Mirror walk and slave

Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.

And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.

 

It is not about Mirror Walk being mentioned in the ruling, it is about the timing used by the Mirror Walk being now (2021) similar to the wording that is discussed regarding the 2009 cards and effects. By your logic above, taken to absurd extreme to highlight the issue, I could claim ruling for Pentex™ Subversion from 2007 mentioning the  "cannot act" is better then ruling from 2009 dealing with cards that have similar wording and effect to the current 2021 Pentex™ Subversion. Just because the card was not changed between 2007 and 2009, does not mean it's current iteration is equal to the terms discussed in the 2007 or 2009 ruling. Expecting them to somehow be psychic in 2009 to know the card text would be changed in the future to match mechanics now is as absurd as expecting them to plan that 2007 judgement based on current changed card text.

Please read the following quoted sentence they use to explain the card text in that 2007 ruling  groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ and compare it to the current card text of Mirror Walk (I'll provide the quotes but if it makes it easier for you to look at it with open mind see it via the links provided). www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt

> ...and plays superior Mirror Walk to try to
> get it through ("+1 stealth, and if this action is blocked, the action
> ends (with no combat).") ...

That's the text and card mechanic LSJ is referencing when making the call;

No. When it is blocked, the action ends.

Because that was how the card was worded back then. The Action end was tied to being blocked. That is not how Mirror Walk action end is currently worded. LSJ was not referencing the current wording in 2007 nor could he predict it in 2009;

[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution. 

If you cannot see the difference between the 2007 version of Mirror Walk superior text and the current 2021 version, any further conversation, proof or quotes from me are moot as I assume you'll only accept explanation and ruling that has current rubber stamp of authority with it. I hope they go to enough detail over the timing windows with quotes so the reply can be referenced in the future as well. And if I'm proven wrong, hey, that's swell as well as I can stop players from playing the Mirror Walk and slave interaction the way they have been doing it.

Action end is still tied to being blocked in both versions of Mirror Walk.
The original wording places the resolution of the effect in the block resolution step prior to combat but retaining the need to lock the blocking minion (by the block resolution action 3b). The reworded version places the resolution of the effect in a new time window (created by RTR 20180719  to address the unclarity of when a blocking minion is locked but does not enter combat, and when a blocking minion is not locked and does not enter combat) between the steps of declaring the block successful and block resolution and makes the locking of the blocking minion explicit. How the “end the action” effect part of it is resolved has not changed.


 

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27 Jun 2021 17:22 - 27 Jun 2021 17:22 #102578 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Mirror walk and slave
First of all, my apologies for not mentioning that Mirror Walk has slightly changed with the release of the Sabbat deck "Rise of the Nephandi" (it should have been mentioned in the February's newsletter ):
Mirror Walk: Now explicitly locks the blocking minion. (SP, 16/02/2019)

This is because Mirror Walk no longer activates half of the block resolution and cancels the other half but triggers before the whole block resolution.

I'd also like to mention another change that has been forgotten in when the newsletter was released, even though this has nothing to do with our matter:
Telepathic Tracking: The card is played when the combat would end, and replaces this by starting a new round. Telepathic Tracking is always played before Psyche! because Psyche! is played when combat is about to end (that is after any replacement effects). (SP, 16/02/2019)

Now, to our subject.

LSJ was considering that some delayed effect that would do something specific (such as ending an action) had a "higher priory" than other effects. I dislike this approach because it's not easy to categorize effects by function and therefore determine which effects should have such a priority (and it's like opening a can of worm: see also Seeds of Corruption and how hard it is to define "special abilities" and "restrictions" ).

Mirror Walk states: "if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.". It's a delayed effect that happens as soon as the condition is met, before any Methuselah can play other cards or use other effects in that same timing window (it is not possible to "interrupt" the resolution of an effect by playing other unrelated effects, even if they share the same timing window). The consequence of this is a REVERSAL of the last part of LSJ 20090513 about Promise of 1528: you cannot play it before burning the blood or life to the Banshee Ironwail.

However, any other delayed effects that trigger at the same time (e.g., Banshee Ironwail) must still be handled. This is why the acting minion should still burn 1 blood or life if they were blocked by a minion with a Banshee Ironwail, even if they played Mirror Walk. Please note that Banshee Ironwail states "(before combat begins, if any)" which is the same timing window as "before block resolution".

The slave rule has not changed: it requires a combat resulting from a block to happen in order to be activated. If the action is ended before the block resolution, then the slave rule cannot be used. It's due to its condition of activation as well as its timing. Please note that if the slave rule were reworded as Mirror Walk, it still wouldn't be usable because it would interrupt the pending effects.

Sowing Dissension's current text ("If this action is blocked by a non-titled vampire, the acting anarch can burn 1 blood to cancel combat and unlock.") requires a combat to happen so it does not work for the same reasons as the slave rule, even if it's a delayed effect. Please note that if Sowing Dissension were reworded as Mirror Walk, the acting Methuselah could use both effects (and this would be a REVERSAL of LSJ 20071015 ).

And of course, once Mirror Walk "end the action" effect has been triggered and resolved, Methuselahs cannot play any other action modifiers or reactions anymore.

I'd like to thank everyone for this interesting discussion.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 27 Jun 2021 17:22 by Ankha.
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