file Mirror walk and slave

24 Jun 2021 10:24 #102562 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Mirror walk and slave

Kilrauko post=102560Unless the Slave mechanics have changed, it's always been the acting minion's controllers ability to choose if they wish to choose order of effects that are happening at the same time. As has been the ability to choose when the action is "blocked". Now for effects happening at the same time, including Change of Target and Slave rule, LSJ goes into over this topic back in 2009 groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gHxAgyP15Vo/m/ogFybBQmaD0J  

> On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ < > wrote:
>> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
>> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
>> Obedience).
>
> I'm not sure I get it.

The acting Methuselah makes the block successful, not the blocking Methuselah.
That point addresses your previous query.
________

 > Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
> 1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
> vampire.
> You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
> everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
> Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..

when a block is successful, yes.
________

 > a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> Maze,Yes.> .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)

? Obedience is in that list.Of course, it ends the action, so if you want to play "those two", you'd have to
play them first. And, of course, VoM cancels combat (thwarting Obedience's
requirement) and MM ends the action (precluding playing other cards after).
________

 > a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
>
> At this point, minions are about to enter combat.

Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
successful.
________

> b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)These were all options in a1.

There is no separate b1.
________
 > b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
> Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
> But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
> successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,> Yawp Court.)

These are part of a2.
________

> Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> clear:
> If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> Banshee Ironwail?

You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (justlike the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).

It's the acting Methuselah that has the option to choose when the action is blocked, aka they no longer play any cards for stealth or use other effects. After that per order of play ABC(acting, blocking, clockwise) gets the say on what effects to trigger as the action is blocked. LSJ is quite clear on when the "about to enter combat" happens, it is tied to acting methuselah declaring block succesful. Note Change of Target and compare it's wording to Mirror Walk;

Name: Change of Target
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4, FB:PTo4, V5:PTo2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
Unlock this minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.
Artist: Dan Frazier; Chris Stevens

________

Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

________

Slave: Some minions are identified as slaves to a specified clan. A slave cannot perform a directed action if their controller does not control a ready member of the specified clan. Also, if a member of the specified clan controlled by the same Methuselah is blocked, the controller can lock the slave to cancel the combat and to unlock the acting vampire and have the slave enter combat with the blocking minion instead. 

And note how Change of Target sits next to Slave rule. And by extension, so does Mirror walk. All call for "is blocked", that the acting methuselah decides and has the sequenced right to act first and choose what to trigger first.

Now granted, things might have changed since 2009, Slave rule might have been modified, as could have happened with the card texts, but until proven otherwise, this is still how things are.

So TL:DR
Controller of the acting minion can choose timing and can use the slave rule to unlock before superior Mirror Walk action end.

The Resulting combat is different then the one tied to the block resolution as the slave was never blocked and instead just enters the combat with the blocker. This also means if the blocker is a vampire it cannot escape with reaction Obedience as the slave gargoyle is not acting younger vampire.

The distinction here is that the effect of Mirror Walk is already in play when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked, immediately ending the action which can no longer be modified or reacted to and therefore also includes invoking the slave rule. The ruling  [LSJ 20071015]  provided by Timo in the opening post makes good examples of situations with the same time window as the salve rule not being playable when the effect of Mirror Walk is in play.
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24 Jun 2021 16:11 #102563 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Mirror walk and slave

<snipeti snip>

The distinction here is that the effect of Mirror Walk is already in play when the acting player chooses that the action is blocked, immediately ending the action which can no longer be modified or reacted to and therefore also includes invoking the slave rule. The ruling  [LSJ 20071015]  provided by Timo in the opening post makes good examples of situations with the same time window as the salve rule not being playable when the effect of Mirror Walk is in play.

Please note that nothing in Mirror Walk says it prevents the acting Methuselah from choosing what effects happen in what order during the same step. It does not in fact say action "immediately ends" but instead per card text; "...end the action before block resolution."  As long as the action has not ended, controller can play action modifiers and other methuselah can play reaction cards in addition to usage of various effects. If you wish for that kind of effect, check Kiss or Ra and Obedience;

Name: The Kiss of Ra [AH:U5, FN:PR, CE:PV, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PI] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 3 blood Discipline: Fortitude Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude [for] attempts to block this acting minion. [for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat). [FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor. Artist: Sandra Everingham
____
Name: Obedience
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:PV, CE:U, Third:U, HttB:PKia3, SP:PoS2]
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable {if} this vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire.
[dom] Unlock the acting vampire and end the action. (Do not lock this vampire if they are blocking.) The acting vampire cannot take the same action this turn.
[DOM] As above, but do not unlock the acting vampire.
Artist: Ron Spencer; L. A. Williams; Oliver Meinerding


that end the action right as their effect resolves, instead waiting for "before block resolution." If design intent for Mirror Walk was to somehow prevent effects and cards being played, it would be worded differently. What's more, there is no "immediate" effect that runs away from controlling methuselah somehow past their grasp, they're the ones who choose and declare it when it happens. This is laid out in detail in the www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary

PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]
...
B. Declare the effect.

  1. Fully announce the effect (as applicable: the minion playing/using it, targets, cost, and so on). If the effect is a card, play the card to the playing area.
  2. You cannot play a card or use an effect whose cost cannot be paid.
  3. For cards, this step (II.B) is the "as played" window.
    1. Cards that can cancel a card "as it is played" can be played at this time, as can Wake-style cards whose effects grant the ability to play those effects.
    2. Other cards and effects cannot be used at this time.
    3. If the card is canceled, skip to step D.
  4. For cards, your hand size is reduced by 1 until you replace the card (step D).

Please note how other cards and effects aside from "as it is played cancels" cannot be used before it starts to resolve...

C. Replace the card (after handling all pending "as played" windows).
1. If the card text says not to replace until later (and is wasn't canceled as played), then your hand size is effectively reduced until the card is replaced. (I.E.2)
2. If a card is canceled, any "do not replace" clause on it is canceled as well.

D. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B).
...
3. For all other cards, pay cost to resolve effect immediately.
a. Pay cost.
b. Resolve effect.
c. Action modifiers and reaction cards that may be put in play depending on the success of the action (or of a block attempt) are "in limbo" until that is determined. [RTR]

And once the effect is resolving, well, things go as they do, any other riding effects that are no longer valid, well, they're no longer valid. They're the strikes with Bang Nakh when opponent has released Canine Hordes with first strike.

If you need further consolation on things being how I present them, please note 2009 is later then 2007, and we tend to go with the latest relevant ruling as opposed to the earliest. Hence why I specifically mentioned if someone produces more recent ruling relating to the matter, that makes my post moot. Change in the terminology of Chance of Target and/or Slave rule also might affect, as those are referenced but not provided the exact wording. For Mirror Walk we're only interested in the current wording, as it used to be different in 3rd edition printing. This might also be reason why LSJ has answered regarding Mirror Walk as he did back in 2007, when the wording was as follows;

Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, the action ends (with no combat).
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

Note how the placement of *when* action ends changes and how that version of Mirror Walk is more similar to current Kiss of Ra. After the "the action ends" effect is resolved, nobody can play action modifiers or reactions anymore unless The Golden Rule for Cards says otherwise. The Current Mirror Walk ends the action *before* block resolution. Per detailed play there are multiple steps between "declare block succesful" and "resolve block" that enable playing cards and effects provided they're valid for that window. The Window being "is blocked".

3. If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. [6.2.3]
a. The cost of the action is not paid. The action card, if any, is burned.
b. Lock blocking minion.
c. If the acting minion was acting from the ready region, he enters combat with the blocking minion (VI)
d. If the acting minion was acting from torpor and the blocking minion is a vampire, the blocker may diablerize the acting vampire. (VIII) [6.5.2]

E. Action ends (after all combats and other effects to be applied to the action are resolved).
NOTE: Action modifiers may be played only by the acting minion at any time in the above sequence as allowed by the card. Any cost for playing the modifier is paid immediately. [6.2.3] The same minion may not use the same action modifier again in the current action. [1.6.3.2] Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]

Naturally the acting methuselah can play also choose and play other appropiate effects then just action modifiers, otherwise they could not declare the superior Mirror Walk to happen (it does not declare itself.)

Overall this showcases why it's important to understand and seek the context surrounding ruling instead blindly following it as the way cards are worded has changed over the years. It's also why one needs to be open for being proven wrong, for all I know I'm quoting outdated information that no longer applies. But until someone does that, I'm quite content with my reasoning on this.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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25 Jun 2021 07:27 - 25 Jun 2021 07:28 #102564 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Mirror walk and slave
Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.

And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.
Last edit: 25 Jun 2021 07:28 by Timo.
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25 Jun 2021 13:47 #102565 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Mirror walk and slave

Yes 2007 is older than 2009 but the 2009 ruling you are referencing says nothing specificaly about mirror walk and no change of rule/mirror walk reworking had happen between those 2 dates.

And so IMO, the 2007 ruling do not have any reason to change and LSJ stated that the acting could not play anything between the "action is blocked" announcement and the triggering of the "end the action" effect of mirror walk.
 

It is not about Mirror Walk being mentioned in the ruling, it is about the timing used by the Mirror Walk being now (2021) similar to the wording that is discussed regarding the 2009 cards and effects. By your logic above, taken to absurd extreme to highlight the issue, I could claim ruling for Pentex™ Subversion from 2007 mentioning the  "cannot act" is better then ruling from 2009 dealing with cards that have similar wording and effect to the current 2021 Pentex™ Subversion. Just because the card was not changed between 2007 and 2009, does not mean it's current iteration is equal to the terms discussed in the 2007 or 2009 ruling. Expecting them to somehow be psychic in 2009 to know the card text would be changed in the future to match mechanics now is as absurd as expecting them to plan that 2007 judgement based on current changed card text.

Please read the following quoted sentence they use to explain the card text in that 2007 ruling  groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/PyCEvjx5Oq8/m/e036rmxAzyMJ and compare it to the current card text of Mirror Walk (I'll provide the quotes but if it makes it easier for you to look at it with open mind see it via the links provided). www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt

> ...and plays superior Mirror Walk to try to
> get it through ("+1 stealth, and if this action is blocked, the action
> ends (with no combat).") ...

That's the text and card mechanic LSJ is referencing when making the call;

No. When it is blocked, the action ends.

Because that was how the card was worded back then. The Action end was tied to being blocked. That is not how Mirror Walk action end is currently worded. LSJ was not referencing the current wording in 2007 nor could he predict it in 2009;

[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution. 

If you cannot see the difference between the 2007 version of Mirror Walk superior text and the current 2021 version, any further conversation, proof or quotes from me are moot as I assume you'll only accept explanation and ruling that has current rubber stamp of authority with it. I hope they go to enough detail over the timing windows with quotes so the reply can be referenced in the future as well. And if I'm proven wrong, hey, that's swell as well as I can stop players from playing the Mirror Walk and slave interaction the way they have been doing it.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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25 Jun 2021 15:30 #102566 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Mirror walk and slave
Yes I can see the difference.

But the rewording was done not to have the card function differently but to smooth the global templating of the game. Otherwise it would have been announced as a modification of the card effect and not merely printed with a different card text.

What I say is based on the opinion (I could be wrong) that the intent when changing the card text was for clarity and not for mechanical change.

And, yes, I *am* waiting for a stamp by Ankha for an actual official answer (and yes, it would be great if there was with it the reasoning behind the answer).
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25 Jun 2021 17:40 #102567 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Mirror walk and slave
Just to tell you I'll answer later next week.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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