lightbulb Rulebook: Potentially misleading and oddly placed passages

04 Nov 2021 10:58 - 26 Dec 2021 09:12 #103778 by inm8

If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however).

Should be "If a single minion can't perform a mandatory action or has two [...]
Aka the "change of target on a mandatory hunt" rule.



Adding to this in this thread so it is in one place, suggested wording below


Rulebook change:
Some actions are mandatory. Any of those actions must be performed before any nonmandatory actions and nonrepeatable actions only need to be performed once per turn as such. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt as a mandatory action.

If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, or cannot perform a mandatory action, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however).


*** Post update, withdrawing this suggestion. See post . ***
Last edit: 26 Dec 2021 09:12 by inm8. Reason: withdrawing suggestion

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04 Nov 2021 14:31 #103782 by kschaefer

Adding to this in this thread so it is in one place, suggested wording below

Rulebook change:
Some actions are mandatory. Any of those actions must be performed before any nonmandatory actions and nonrepeatable actions only need to be performed once per turn as such. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt as a mandatory action.

If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, or cannot perform a mandatory action, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however).


This would change how Embraces, Waters of Duat, and Tumnimos work. If they unlock during the turn they are created after they hunt, with the current rulings, they could act, with the proposed rulebook change they could not.

Perhaps the correct answer is to remove the `must hunt` clauses from those cards. The come into play empty and can act, so hunting is the only option unless tricks like The Coven come into play.

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05 Nov 2021 14:43 #103798 by inm8

Adding to this in this thread so it is in one place, suggested wording below

Rulebook change:
Some actions are mandatory. Any of those actions must be performed before any nonmandatory actions and nonrepeatable actions only need to be performed once per turn as such. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion required to take a mandatory action cannot perform any other action. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt as a mandatory action.

If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, or cannot perform a mandatory action, then they are “stuck” and cannot perform any action (this does not prevent your other minions from performing actions, however).


This would change how Embraces, Waters of Duat, and Tumnimos work. If they unlock during the turn they are created after they hunt, with the current rulings, they could act, with the proposed rulebook change they could not.

Perhaps the correct answer is to remove the `must hunt` clauses from those cards. The come into play empty and can act, so hunting is the only option unless tricks like The Coven come into play.



Does anyone else see the issue/flaw that kschaefer is pointing out? I talked to him extensively already and unfortunately, I haven't gotten to a place where I understand what or where there is a flaw in the suggested wording. If anyone sees the same or something else I would be grateful for the feedback and hopefully, I am able to get the point to correct the flaw if it is there.

As per my interpretation, the suggested wording I have made wouldn't affect "must hunt this turn" actions, any other repeatable actions made mandatory (i.e. diablerie) nor conditionally mandatory repeatable actions (i.e. hunt).

If a repeatable action is made mandatory for a duration then that is the only action that can be taken for that duration, this is not true for nonrepeatable actions made mandatory which satisfy the necessity for the action being taken by performing it once per turn as mandatory regardless of the duration.

The addition "and nonrepeatable actions only need to be performed once per turn as such." only affects nonrepeatable actions made mandatory when taken as mandatory.

The omission of mentioning repeatable actions made mandatory doesn't make e.g. "must hunt this turn" effects nor empty vampires need to hunt the only possible action for the turn as long as the conditions making them mandatory have been satisfied/are no longer relevant... the first (i.e "must hunt this turn") mandatory nature is satisfied /made irrelevant as soon as it has been performed once in that turn as there is no duration mentioned (per official English grammar and also supported by a ruling) and the second (i.e. empty vampires need to hunt) is conditionally mandatory and only while the vampire is empty of blood, as soon as he has some blood the hunt action is no longer mandatory but optional.

Finally, I want to clarify that all of my submissions for additions/changes/clarifications are to make the rules explain the full picture accurately and precisely without actually changing the rules per se or going against rulings. I try to formulate suggestions that are as small as possible (amount of text) and without trying to simplify the language used to address the intended parts. I´m sure things can be written in different ways and I don't think that my wording is necessarily the best so feel free to make your own suggestions or suggest how to improve mine.

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05 Nov 2021 21:06 - 05 Nov 2021 21:27 #103809 by Hobbesgoblin
My understaning of Kschaefer's point is, that there would bw two triggers in place, mandating mandatory actions. These actions may be the same, but they have seperate soruces, so you could read the rules in a way, that they are "stuck" due to having two "mandatory action triggers" on them.

Or they are referring to the "and nonrepeatable actions only need to be performed once per turn as such." part, as Hunt is repeatable, and you coudl read it as the huns must be performed several times.
Last edit: 05 Nov 2021 21:27 by Hobbesgoblin.

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07 Nov 2021 11:45 #103819 by Hobbesgoblin
After a lengthy discussion, it came to light that

1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen.

can be misleading
The problem is, that it can be read as, that this step is skipped or aborted, if the range is set by an effect.

I propose the follwing, or similar

1. Before Range: Play cards that are played "before range is chosen".

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10 Nov 2021 15:22 - 10 Nov 2021 15:54 #103846 by inm8

After a lengthy discussion, it came to light that

1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen.

can be misleading
The problem is, that it can be read as, that this step is skipped or aborted, if the range is set by an effect.

I propose the follwing, or similar

1. Before Range: Play cards that are played "before range is chosen".


I don´t think the above makes it clearer as to what is actually allowed, skipped etc. when a "set the range" effect is played.
I think that an addition of an "ADVANCED RULES" section under the "Before Range" step that explains the interactions of "set the range" effects would do a better job.



ADVANCED RULES

Some cards may provide the ability to set the range of combat or a round of combat, these follow the normal sequencing rule. Whoever plays a range setting effect first decides what the range will be, no further range affecting effects nor maneuvers can be played in the relevant combat or round, and the combat step Determine Range is skipped. The combat step Before Range is not closed nor skipped because the range is set for the combat or round and any before range is determined/chosen effects are still playable.

Last edit: 10 Nov 2021 15:54 by inm8.

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