file Elen Camjian second action.

17 Dec 2021 21:18 #104221 by Whisker
Replied by Whisker on topic Elen Camjian second action.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else.

Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political).

Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck.

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18 Dec 2021 12:42 - 18 Dec 2021 12:52 #104225 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Elen Camjian second action.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because


Don´t know why the ruling introduced a new game mechanic/rule....perhaps it was always intended to work this way or it was determined that it was needed when giving the ruling.
As per the rulebook both then and currently the minion is considered stuck and is overruled by the ruling thus allowed to take a different action.

NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once.


Correct.

So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else.


The NRA doesn't make an action/ability (disability) "disappear"...the rationale is a game mechanical one that unfortunately has yet to make it into the rulebook where it should explain that NRA´s that are made continuously mandatory only forces the minion to have to take it once per turn which isn´t the case for repeatable actions made continuously mandatory.

Lunatic Eruption has been ruled [ANK 20200227] aligned with the Cry Wolf ruling [LSJ 20090226] , could you please share the rationale for the rulings to better understand why it was ruled that way?

Because the action cannot be repeated by the same minion. The Cry Wolf ruling implies that in that case, performing the mandatory action (provided by the card) once is enough.



Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political).

Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck.


You are correct in that the card text below doesn´t provide a diablerie action but it force the vampire to attempt a diablerie action if the condition of an older vampire being in torpor is true...though the fact that it doesn´t provide a diablerie action is not the reason why it has to be done again if the vampire unlocks after having done it once...the reason is that the action that is being continuously made conditionally mandatory is a repeatable one.

When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt).

Last edit: 18 Dec 2021 12:52 by inm8.

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19 Dec 2021 08:25 #104228 by Joscha
Replied by Joscha on topic Elen Camjian second action.

I know diablerie actions are not restricted by the NRA but doesn´t the card text say/mean that only "a"/one diablerie action must be attempted???

Card text
Sabbat. Black Hand: Phillipe cannot block undirected actions. When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt).

"a" does not mean "one" but is just an article for a noun, here the action.
The meaning of Phil's special is "diablerize, if you can", not once but as often as you are unlocked.

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19 Dec 2021 08:32 #104229 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Elen Camjian second action.
Thanks for pointing it out...I figured that out after that I wrote my post but good that you point it out so others don't have the same confusion as I did.
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25 Dec 2021 05:33 - 27 Jul 2022 08:51 #104282 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Elen Camjian second action.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else.

Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political).

Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck.


Been thinking of this post for a bit and I think I missed your actual point, sorry for that.
I now understand, agree with you, and is also what makes more sense than any other rationale/justification. I was barking down the wrong tree....it has nothing to do with handling non-repeatable actions differently from repeatable actions.

The key is that actions provided by a "card in play" is only allowed to be done once per turn by the NRA rule...and to not contradict this rule we have these rulings.... thereby if it is an action provided by a "card in play" that is made continuously/repeatedly mandatory the need to perform that action is considered satisfied after doing it once per turn (aligning with the NRA rule) regardless of if the action is a repeatable one or not.


@Ankha please confirm if the above is correct or not.


Based on the above it would make sense to further clarify the rules in regards to actions provided by a "card in play" and would be best covered in a new section introduced covering the NRA as a whole.

Currently, the rules (as far as I could find) only has the below mentioned about it...and also means that if a "card in play" provides more than one possible action then each one of those can be performed only once per turn.:

Rulebook
A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion’s own card text) more than once each turn, even if they unlock.

Last edit: 27 Jul 2022 08:51 by inm8.
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05 Jan 2022 12:44 - 27 Jul 2022 08:50 #104358 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Elen Camjian second action.
Ankha can you please advise on the below (if the Cry Wolf ruling and others similar are because of the NRA rule or not).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Cry Wolf ruling being because NRA rules say that minion can only take an action granted by cards in play (including special ability on a minion) only once. So once Cry Wolf has taken his action (enter combat) that option does not exist for him any more. Thus if you manage to unlock him, he's free to do something else.

Thus Philippe must attempt to diablerize again, as his special makes the action mandatory, but diablearia action itself is not granted by a card in play, nor does it belong to other actions limited by NRA (bleed, political).

Having two or more mandatory actions leaves you stuck.


Been thinking of this post for a bit and I think I missed your actual point, sorry for that.
I now understand, agree with you, and is also what makes more sense than any other rationale/justification. I was barking down the wrong tree....it has nothing to do with handling non-repeatable actions differently from repeatable actions.

The key is that actions provided by a "card in play" is only allowed to be done once per turn by the NRA rule...and to not contradict this rule we have these rulings.... thereby if it is an action provided by a "card in play" that is made continuously/repeatedly mandatory the need to perform that action is considered satisfied after doing it once per turn (aligning with the NRA rule) regardless of if the action is a repeatable one or not.


@Ankha please confirm if the above is correct or not.


Based on the above it would make sense to further clarify the rules in regards to actions provided by a "card in play" and would be best covered in a new section introduced covering the NRA as a whole.

Currently, the rules (as far as I could find) only has the below mentioned about it...and also means that if a "card in play" provides more than one possible action then each one of those can be performed only once per turn.:

Rulebook
A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion’s own card text) more than once each turn, even if they unlock.

Last edit: 27 Jul 2022 08:50 by inm8.

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