file Sup Foreshadoing Destruction when the target has 10 or more pool

09 Oct 2021 11:48 #103484 by Hobbesgoblin
From the card rulings about Foreshadowing destruction:

The superior doesn't increase the bleed amount if the target is at 10 or more pool - you could play it after Conditioning against such a target (and it would still activate when deflected to someone with 9 or less pool). [PIB 20110817]

does this still hold true, that both modifiers would count, if the (new) target has 9 pool or less?

there would be 2 (limited) modifiers in effect.

Other cards check in play and resolution if there are still legal (Superior Blood of Sandman on a minion that unlocks as a reaction fizzles for example)

Foreshadowing destruction

Conditioning

Blood of Sandman

Eluding the Arms of Morpheus

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09 Oct 2021 12:15 #103485 by Lönkka
[PIB 20110817] is bizarre.
You can't combine two action modifiers increasing the bleed (unless at least one of them happens to be those unusual non-limited bleed modifiers) so playing both Conditioning and Foreshadowing is impossible during the same action.

(If [PIB 20110817] means that you could play a Conditioning first with minion A to bring the pool down to 9 or less and then Foreshadow with minion B,then it is worded in a silly manner. Why bring up Conditioning in the first place? Was this a reply to some question about using them both during the same action?)

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09 Oct 2021 23:17 - 09 Oct 2021 23:19 #103497 by Bloodartist

[PIB 20110817] is bizarre.
You can't combine two action modifiers increasing the bleed (unless at least one of them happens to be those unusual non-limited bleed modifiers) so playing both Conditioning and Foreshadowing is impossible during the same action.

(If [PIB 20110817] means that you could play a Conditioning first with minion A to bring the pool down to 9 or less and then Foreshadow with minion B,then it is worded in a silly manner. Why bring up Conditioning in the first place? Was this a reply to some question about using them both during the same action?)


The trick here is that you play foreshadowing at superior while target has 10+ pool, meaning the card does not increase bleed since it is essentially blank. Then you play conditioning increasing the bleed by +3. This is possible because foreshadowing did not increase the bleed amount, and limit only applies to playing modifiers that increase the bleed.

Then before the bleed resolves, something happens to lower the targets pool below 10 (aching beauty, whatever). Then foreshadowing kicks in and both modifiers apply, giving the bleed +6.

This has already bee ruled possible, see the newsletter rules spotlight that was linked.

RULES SPOTLIGHT: ACTION MODIFIERS

Some rules Q & A from Black Chantry Rules Director Vincent “Ankha” Ripoll:

Q: If you play Foreshadowing Destruction at superior on your prey with 9 or fewer pool and it is bounced to another player that has more than 9 pool, foreshadowing does not add to the bleed at all. Is that right? Was it always that way or just with the latest wording?
A: Yes, and it was always that way. Foreshadowing Destruction provides +3 bleed only if the target has less than 10 pool.

Q: Can I play another bleed modifier such as Conditioning after playing a Foreshadowing Destruction at superior?
A: You can if the target of the bleed has 10 pool or more since Foreshadowing Destruction does not increase the bleed amount in that case. Please note that it was not the case before, since Foreshadowing Destruction used to prevent other action modifiers that increase the bleed to be played per card text. Now the limiting card text has been moved to the rulebook and does not care about the order.

Q: What about the other way round? Can I play Foreshadowing Destruction at superior after playing a Conditioning?
A: Same answer, you can play Foreshadowing Destruction if the target of the bleed has 10 pool or more since it does not increase the bleed amount in that case.

Q: Foreshadowing Destruction says that it is "(limited)". Doesn't it prevent other bleed modifiers from being played?
A: "(limited)" is just a hint to remind players that there is a rule about limits for bleed modifiers in the rulebook. The text has no effect by itself – that is why it is between parenthesis.

Q: A Conditioning is played and cancelled by a Direct Intervention. Can another bleed modifier be played? The rule says "No more than one action modifier card can be played to increase a bleed during a bleed action." and the Conditioning was played, right?
A: The Conditioning was played, but did not increase the bleed. Therefore it does not count against the limit, and another bleed modifier can be played.

The above was first posted at the VEKN.net forum – check out the thread for more discussion: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78044-about-bleed-modifiers


ps. welcome to VTES

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
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Last edit: 09 Oct 2021 23:19 by Bloodartist.

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10 Oct 2021 05:12 #103498 by Lönkka

The trick here is that you play foreshadowing at superior while target has 10+ pool, meaning the card does not increase bleed since it is essentially blank. Then you play conditioning increasing the bleed by +3. This is possible because foreshadowing did not increase the bleed amount, and limit only applies to playing modifiers that increase the bleed.


Aaa, indeed.
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10 Oct 2021 09:25 #103499 by inm8
The fact that it took a news letter Q/A 5 questions to cover all the nuances of how and why this works as it does shows how very unclear it is and is a failure for the rulebook to clearly explain something that is very fundamental to the game.

I understand the fact that superior Foreshadowing Destruction is conditionally phrased "+3 bleed if the target Methuselah has 9 or fewer pool (limited)." to actually gain the effect of +3 bleed but isn´t it still an action modifier card played to increase the bleed amount (which is what is limited as per the rules)??? regardless of if the bleed increase is gained or not??? The conditional nature of the superior effect doesn´t not make it an action modifier card to increase the bleed amount but is what has been ruled which then begs the question as to what it is when not meeting the condition?

Makes you wonder if the cards should have been written as below:

Foreshadowing Destruction
Only usable during a bleed action.
:dom: +1 bleed (limited).
:DOM: +1 bleed or +3 bleed if the target Methuselah has 9 or fewer pool (limited).

Rulebook says:
During a bleed action, a minion cannot play more than one action modifier card to increase the bleed amount. This rule is reminded on those cards by the “(limited)” card text.

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