file Blade of Enoch user playing Dam the Heart's River

10 Apr 2022 07:01 #104977 by inm8

Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion.
I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions.


I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble.

I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied....it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect

Would you consider Increased Strength to be targeting the opposing minion if it didn´t have the text "made by this vampire"?

Example, where it is clearly the opposing minion that is frenzied, is Drawing out the Beast where the effects are applied on the opposing minion and not on the minion playing the card.

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10 Apr 2022 11:54 - 10 Apr 2022 11:55 #104981 by Bloodartist
Seconding inm8 here.

The key to this ruling is understanding which of the minions is "frenzying" when dam the heart's river is played. There are examples of both types in cards

"Drawing out the beast" obviously makes the opposing minion frenzy, All the effects apply to the opposing vampire.

"Devil channel: hands" obviously affects only the vampire playing it, there is no mention of the other minion.

So is the frenzy a condition which is applied to the opposing minion as a "weakness", or is the vampire playing the card frenzying because they are doing +1 damage?

This difference is important when cards that grant immunity to frenzy are in play.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 10 Apr 2022 11:55 by Bloodartist.

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10 Apr 2022 12:10 #104982 by Ankha

Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion.
I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions.


I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble.

I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied....

It is however the only minion explictly mentionned.

it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect

It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card.
And once again, if there's a minion mentionned explictly, the frenzy applies to that minion.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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10 Apr 2022 12:14 #104983 by Ankha

Would you consider Increased Strength to be targeting the opposing minion if it didn´t have the text "made by this vampire"?

The opposing minion is not mentioned, the vampire playing the card is => if it were a frenzy card, it would target the vampire playing it ("All damaging strikes provided by cards requiring Potence [pot] made by this vampire inflict +1 damage this combat.")
Damage would be increased even when made against a retainer on the opposing minion for instance (eg., Thrown Gate vs a retainer at long range).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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10 Apr 2022 15:03 - 11 Apr 2022 08:57 #104984 by inm8

Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion.
I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions.


I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble.

I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied....


It is however the only minion explictly mentionned.


You seem to have a hung up on the words "opposing minion" as if that on its own is what matters...you can´t just take it out of context from the rest of the card text.
Yes, the "opposing minion" words are explicitly there in the card text but not to specify on which target it is played.

As per LSJs definition of who is the frenzied target, it isn´t that the words "opposing minion" exist in the card text but that "explicit card text specifies on which minion the card is played" which the text of DtHR doesn´t do....this then leads to having to use the first portion of the definition.

If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit card text.


The portion of the text "made against the opposing minion" isn´t in there to declare who is the frenzied minion but as a limitation to the part before it "each strike and damaging effect".

Without the text portion "made against the opposing minion" it would mean that the effect would boost both minion's strikes and damaging effects to "inflict +1 damage".

it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect

It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card.


First, you are taking the word "inflict" out of the context that i used it in with regards to the card text of DtHR.

Secondly, all words of a phrase and/or card text matter and how it is written (order, commas, etc.).

Thirdly, the above is just plain wrong, none of the mentioned cards are +damage effects, but damaging effects in their own right, and not relevant to the question at hand.
** I misunderstood Ankha´s point explaining that the damage of CC and GR is also subject to be boosted by DtHR.**

And once again, if there's a minion mentionned explictly, the frenzy applies to that minion.


As explained above, the mention/existence of the words "opposing minion" or "this vampire", if not used to explicitly specify which minion it is played on, doesn´t tell onto which minion(s) the frenzy applies.




As English isn´t my native language if I'm reading the text of DtHR wrong (which I don´t think I am), please explain how it is to be read and break down the different parts.

I have no issue with being wrong and would happily admit it if it is the case.

As always I´m augmenting from the point of what the text actually says/means. If you are ruling based on intent/design then say so.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2022 08:57 by inm8. Reason: missunderstanding of Ankha´s point

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11 Apr 2022 07:50 - 11 Apr 2022 07:53 #104987 by Timo

It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card.
[...]
Thirdly, the above is just plain wrong, none of the mentioned cards are +damage effects, but damaging effects in their own right, and not relevant to the question at hand.


Just about this part : CC and Ghoul Retainer are not + damage effect but their inherent damage are boosted by Dam the heart.

So if we state that the frenzy is played on the vampire playing it, how could it affect the damages done by these cards ? It couldn't. And so we have an impossibility.

It is what is called in logic a proof by contradiction if we have 2 hypothesis one of them being the opposite of the other and we can prove that 1 hypothesis lead to a contradiction, then, the other is necessarily true :

here we have :
hypothesis 1 : the vampire A playing the card against vampire B is the target of the frenzy.
Let's look at the case of vamp A playing dam the heart and carrion crow and then dodging (and for the over achiever that some of you know I am let's imagine that he have an Ex Nihilo on him).
This scenario lead to vampire A dealing no damage whatsoever and yet, the additional damages from the dam the heart still kick in (per card text).
So we have a contradiction.
So vamp A can't be the target of the frenzy.
So no other minion being around, the opposing must be the target.
the damage from
Last edit: 11 Apr 2022 07:53 by Timo. Reason: bad grammar
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