file Blade of Enoch user playing Dam the Heart's River

09 Apr 2022 13:29 #104968 by inm8

Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion?

Yes, Dam the Heart's River targets the opposing minion.

Minion X is equipped with Blade of Enoch.
Controller of Minion X is willing to play DtHR’s in a combat agains Minion Y.

Questions:

1- Does the controller of the Minion X can play DtHRs?
1A- if yes, who is the target of the frenzy.
1B- if Yes, does the the effects of the DtHRs affect the minion Y?

2- If no, then we are supposed we cannot play cards on vampires that immune to the said effect?

1.
1a: the opposing minion


How does the text of inferior DtHR make the opposing minion the frenzied minion???

The text says "each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." meaning that what is being boosted is strikes or damaging effects which are made/triggered by the minion that played DtHR.

Similar wording is found on Increased Strength and it isn´t considered as targeting the opponent.

The difference in text between DtHR and IS - "made against the opposing minion" vs "that require Potence :pot: made by this vampire", where both are conditional portions of the text.

If DtHR would have been worded like Target Vitals (relevant text below) it would make more sense that the frenzy is imposed on the opponent, weakening him to have to handle more damage, but that isn't the case.

If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike,



Frenzy = a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behavior.

I don't see how inferior DtHR would be applicable to the opposing minion when it is the minion that played it that inflicts more damage, makes more sense that the temporary wild uncontrolled behavior enables the striking minion to do more damage.

Other similar card is Devil-Channel: Hands which has been ruled in [LSJ 20051113] to be targeting the minion that plays it and not the opponent.

D-C: Hands does not affect the opposing minion.


Inferior DtHR affects the damage amount "to be" done by strikes and damaging effects, not the opposing minion when played.

And later in the same ruling, LSJ provides the definition of how to determine who is frenzied which I don´t think DtHR fits into

If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when
played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text
specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit
card text.



Target Vitals


Increased Strength


Devil-Channel: Hands

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 Apr 2022 20:22 - 09 Apr 2022 20:24 #104969 by Ankha

Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion?

Yes, Dam the Heart's River targets the opposing minion.


How does the text of inferior DtHR make the opposing minion the frenzied minion???

This:

If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when
played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text
specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit
card text.

which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage."

It doesn't say "This vampire inflicts..." not explicitly says "Frenzy, played on this vampire." which would make the vampire who plays Dam the target of the frenzy.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 09 Apr 2022 20:24 by Ankha.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 Apr 2022 22:31 - 10 Apr 2022 00:16 #104972 by inm8

This:

If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when
played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text
specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit
card text.

which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage."


I don´t agree with your interpretation above of the text.

As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR.


Break down of the text:


"This combat," = duration of the effect

"each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect

"made against the opposing minion" = condition/limitation on when/what the effect is applicable i.e. only applys to the strikes and/or damaging effects that are made against the opposing minion.... this is not to be mistaken for being the target of the effect

"inflicts +1 damage." = actual effect on the target, which in this case is a +1 boost to strikes and/or damaging effects made (by the minion that played DtHR) against the opposing minion

It doesn't say "This vampire inflicts..." not explicitly says "Frenzy, played on this vampire." which would make the vampire who plays Dam the target of the frenzy.


The above are wordings for it to be explicitly saying that it is targeting the minion that played DtHR, which the text of DtHR doesn´t....this doesn´t make it mean that the targets/selects/chooses/affects the opposing minion. There is also no explicit text saying it is played on the opposing minion as insinuated by you above by highlighting the text "the opposing minion" in bold.

The only logical conclusion in my opinion is that as the only valid target for inferior DtHR is the strikes and damaging effects done by the minion/player that played DtHR it by extension means that it is that minion that is the target of the frenzy.
Last edit: 10 Apr 2022 00:16 by inm8.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 Apr 2022 01:50 #104974 by kschaefer

"each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect

Tell me how do I frenzy environmental damage? The opposing minion takes more damage from environmental damage, but how can the damage be the target of the frenzy?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 Apr 2022 06:09 #104975 by inm8

"each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect

Tell me how do I frenzy environmental damage?


I have no idea, you tell me. I never stated that it was the damage itself, strikes, or damaging effects that get frenzied.

The opposing minion takes more damage from environmental damage, but how can the damage be the target of the frenzy?


I haven't said the damage is the target of the frenzy.
In fact, I have said (repeatedly) that it is the minion playing inferior DtHR that is the one frenzied.

If I'm not mistaken Dam the Heart's River targets the minion that played the card when played at inferior (makes its strike do +damage) and both minions when played at superior.

The text says "each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." meaning that what is being boosted is strikes or damaging effects which are made/triggered by the minion that played DtHR.

As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR.

The only logical conclusion in my opinion is that as the only valid target for inferior DtHR is the strikes and damaging effects done by the minion/player that played DtHR it by extension means that it is that minion that is the target of the frenzy.


Furthermore "frenzy" isn´t an effect but a trait on cards.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 Apr 2022 06:19 #104976 by Ankha

This:

If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when
played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text
specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit
card text.

which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage."


I don´t agree with your interpretation above of the text.

As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR.

Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion.
I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.108 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum