file Order of delayed/triggered effects

05 Jun 2022 11:19 #105397 by lip
Hey there, fellow Methuselahs. When discussing the intricacies of a few effects on Discord, we stumbled into this.

Most effects in the game happen when a card is played, or when some card text is used. Some effects, though, are delayed or triggered. Going to torpor famously triggers stuff like Fame or Tension in the Ranks, for example. We recently got a few nice rulings on the delayed effects on successful block like superior Mirror Walk and Unleash Hell's Fury.

When multiple such effects trigger at the same time, it has been ruled multiple times that the acting Methuselah chooses the order:
  • If Darkness Within and Theft of Vitae have been played, the acting Methuselah chooses the order of the blood theft effects (matters if there's not enough blood left) [LSJ 20020301]
  • If a minion gets blocked by Unleash Hell's Fury and their Methuselah controls Millicent Smith, the acting Methuselah chooses the order of effects. [ANK 20220116]

But, we found a discrepancy in another ruling: [PIB 20111012] that states that if a vampire has an Anathema while there is a Tension in the Ranks in play and is reduced to zero blood, the Methuselah controlling the vampire decides on the order of effects when it comes down to loosing pool from Tension and gaining pool from Anathema. I think this ruling is all over the place and deserves a REVERSAL. In the ruling example, Rabbat, the Sewer Godess has an Anathema on her and is in combat with another vampire A. She strikes to send A in torpor, A strikes hands 1:
  1. I think A goes to torpor first at strike resolution (Rabbat has damage to mend or prevent, but A goes to torpor before we go to prevention). So Tension should trigger for A first (the ruling states that Tension triggers for A last).
  2. Anathema notoriously triggers before Rabbat has a chance to go to torpor (in case there is more than 1 damage) but in this case, we don't even have to wonder: Tension can only trigger after Anathema triggers, since it is Anathema burning Rabbat that triggers Tension. So Anathema triggers first and one should resolve its effect completely before moving to the Tension effect: there is nothing to order, Anathema grants pool first, then Tension kicks in and Rabbat's controller loses 1 pool.

So, am I missing something? If not, can we get a REVERSAL on [PIB 20111012] ? And second, am I right to think of

When multiple effects trigger at the same time, the acting Methuselah chooses the order

as a general ruling, in that case I'll ask to put it in the Rulebook.

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06 Jun 2022 05:56 #105404 by inm8

But, we found a discrepancy in another ruling: [PIB 20111012] that states that if a vampire has an Anathema while there is a Tension in the Ranks in play and is reduced to zero blood, the Methuselah controlling the vampire decides on the order of effects when it comes down to loosing pool from Tension and gaining pool from Anathema. I think this ruling is all over the place and deserves a REVERSAL. In the ruling example, Rabbat, the Sewer Godess has an Anathema on her and is in combat with another vampire A. She strikes to send A in torpor, A strikes hands 1:
  1. I think A goes to torpor first at strike resolution (Rabbat has damage to mend or prevent, but A goes to torpor before we go to prevention). So Tension should trigger for A first (the ruling states that Tension triggers for A last).
  2. Anathema notoriously triggers before Rabbat has a chance to go to torpor (in case there is more than 1 damage) but in this case, we don't even have to wonder: Tension can only trigger after Anathema triggers, since it is Anathema burning Rabbat that triggers Tension. So Anathema triggers first and one should resolve its effect completely before moving to the Tension effect: there is nothing to order, Anathema grants pool first, then Tension kicks in and Rabbat's controller loses 1 pool.


The way I read PIBs ruling is that Rabbat´s sending a vampire to torpor as a strike even though the effect resolves during strike resolution it just changes the state of the opposing vampire to "going to torpor" and doesn´t actually move the opposing vampire to torpor, the move to torpor is only done during damage resolution after handling damage which is when checking "going to torpor" happens.

The above logic would then result in that during damage resolution before checking "going to torpor" Rabbat would be brought down to 0 blood and thereby trigger Anathema to burn Rabbat immediately and the controller of vampire A to gain 7 pool, and at the same time but sequentially triggering Tension in the Ranks causing the controller of Rabbat to burn 1 pool. Then when checking "going to torpor" vampire A would be sent to torpor and trigger Tension in the Ranks causing the controller to burn 1 pool leaving him at 7 pool (starting 1 + 7 from Anathema - 1 from Tension).

PIB states the effects of Tension in the Ranks and Anathema happen "at the same time" which could be argued isn´t the case as Tension wouldn´t trigger if Anathema didn't trigger first...but I do see where he is coming from which is that because they both happen in the same timing window i.e. during damage handling while in damage resolution they are considered to be "at the same time".

Besides getting a ruling on who gets to order the effects that happen at the same time (where PIB ruled that it is the player/controller of the minion triggering the effects) it would be good to know if the logic above is correct or not (if not what is the correct handling?) as it was (seems to me) what made the basis for the ruling.



Rabbat, The Sewer Goddess


Anathema


Tension in the Ranks

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