file Charming Lobby + a political action card (KRC)

02 Jul 2022 19:31 - 02 Jul 2022 21:15 #105607 by inm8
I would like to know what qualifies as "played to call the referendum" and "used to call the referendum" in the below scenario and a few extra related questions.

Methuselah A has Vampire A1 take the action/play Charming Lobby with Kine Resources Contested in hand and announced as the intended referendum that reaches resolution unblocked.

Questions:
1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?
4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?
5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?


Rulebook
Political action cards: A political action card can be played to call a referendum as an action

Rulebook
A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.

Rulebook
If a political action is successful, its cost is paid, and the referendum is called.

Rulebook
If a political action card was used to call the referendum, that card provides 1 vote for the acting vampire’s controller.

Rulebook
Referendum: The part of a political action or a blood hunt referendum, during which the terms are set, the votes and ballots are cast and the effects are applied (if it passes).


Charming Lobby


Kine Resources Contested
Last edit: 02 Jul 2022 21:15 by inm8.

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04 Jul 2022 14:16 - 04 Jul 2022 14:24 #105616 by Ankha

Questions:
1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?

Both are played. Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
If you play Delaying Tactics, only the KRC go back to its owner's hand. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/8FHCL4AQblI/m/DejFKS9wmXUJ

4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?

Yes.

5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?

The latter.
"political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
The same way that Anonymous Freight is not an "equipment card" even though it is an "equip action".
There may be a confusion since "political action" appears both in the cardtype ("political action card"), and in the type of the action ("political action").
"Equipment card / equip action" are easier to distinguish, but the analogy is the same.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/9HtmVwBkGdE/m/YHEVLeB7Lj4J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/PfM2Xwv6r4oJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/u8MNrvEQzgkJ

6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?

No. The CL has not resolved successfully, so the KRC was not played (see also DI vs Concealed Weapon).

7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?

No. Same reason.

8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?

Yes. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/x_u1Qtiguzg/m/FZjjjIQu-FoJ

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 04 Jul 2022 14:24 by Ankha.

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04 Jul 2022 20:56 #105618 by Yomyael
Could you please elaborate on the first statement you made:

Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).


does this mean that one does not announce which political action to take before blocks are declined? Can I change my mind if I draw another political action card during the action?

Prince of Bonn, Germany

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04 Jul 2022 20:59 #105619 by inm8
Apologies ahead of time as the post may be a little long and I know you don't like TLDR kind of posts.

Questions:
1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?

Both are played. Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
If you play Delaying Tactics, only the KRC go back to its owner's hand. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/8FHCL4AQblI/m/DejFKS9wmXUJ

That both cards are played I both agree with and fully understand.
Here is a ruling making it clear that "(play that card)" is not reminder text and here is a ruling making it clear that the PA card isn´t played in the normal fashion.

My question though is if the PA card is actually played to call the referendum which based on your answer (in my opinion) contradicts the rule below because the PA card isn't played for the political action itself which is what is used to call the referendum..

Rulebook:
A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.

If it isn´t a contradiction could you please explain why not?


Furthermore found these two rulings saying that the referendum is Charming Lobby´s effect and that the Charming Lobby action calls the referendum on a PA card in your hand.

Are you reversing the above 2 rulings? Or am I misunderstanding and they and your ruling can coexist?


About Delaying Tactics:

Its text was changed from

The controller of the acting vampire takes the political action card (if any) back into his or her hand (and discards down to his or her hand size), and his or her vampires cannot attempt the same political action this turn.

which didn´t require the PA card to be played to call the referendum

to

If a political action card was played to call this referendum, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward).

which (in my opinion) now only enables a PA card played to call the referendum (i.e. only a PA card played normally) to be returned to its owner's hand

There is an inconsistency in that Delaying Tactics enables the return of a card that wasn´t played in a normal fashion when referring to a "played" card while at the same time having a ruling on Epikasta that says she isn´t allowed to return cards played in a non-normal fashion, where the ruling also clarifies it is applicable to the PA card played with Charming Lobby.


Delaying Tactics

4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?

Yes.


This should fall in under the same as above, used to call a referendum required the PA card to be used for taking the political action which it isn´t, Charming Lobby is the political action being taken that is used to call a referendum and per the rule, it shouldn't provide the vote in that case.

Here is a ruling to draw a parallel in that as the PA card doesn´t provide the inherent +1 stealth of the card to the action making the Charming Lobby action with a PA card still only be at +1 stealth total. If the stealth of the PA card isn't gained why would the vote be?

Another similar case where the vote isn´t gained is when playing Bujo where the only difference is that the PA card is in the ash heap and card text doesn´t explicitly say "(play the card)" but at the same time requirements of that political action must be met as if it was played.


Bujo


5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?

The latter.
"political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
The same way that Anonymous Freight is not an "equipment card" even though it is an "equip action".
There may be a confusion since "political action" appears both in the cardtype ("political action card"), and in the type of the action ("political action").
"Equipment card / equip action" are easier to distinguish, but the analogy is the same.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/9HtmVwBkGdE/m/YHEVLeB7Lj4J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/PfM2Xwv6r4oJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/u8MNrvEQzgkJ

6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?

No. The CL has not resolved successfully, so the KRC was not played (see also DI vs Concealed Weapon).

7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?

No. Same reason.

8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?

Yes. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/x_u1Qtiguzg/m/FZjjjIQu-FoJ


Thx for the clarifications above.

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04 Jul 2022 21:16 #105620 by inm8

Could you please elaborate on the first statement you made:

Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).


does this mean that one does not announce which political action to take before blocks are declined? Can I change my mind if I draw another political action card during the action?


One has to announce the referendum that Charming Lobby is going to call.
You cannot change your mind once the action is fully announced.

The proper way to play Charming Lobby is to play the card, announce its effect and the intended referendum (if not from an effect in play you must have the PA card in hand before the replacement of Charming Lobby is drawn) without revealing it if it is a PA card in hand until and only if the action reaches resolution unblocked which is when you then need to "(play that card)" directly to the ash heap (different to the handling when the PA card is used to call the referendum which then instead goes into limbo until after action resolution which is when it goes to the ash heap.

[LSJ 20101209] ignore the incorrect comment about discarding the PA card if the action is blocked which is wrong.

[LSJ 20050324] explaining the course of a political action and also confirming that an action card that was successfully resolved is also burned and sent to the ash heap.

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05 Jul 2022 08:55 #105627 by Ankha

My question though is if the PA card is actually played to call the referendum which based on your answer (in my opinion) contradicts the rule below because the PA card isn't played for the political action itself which is what is used to call the referendum..
If it isn´t a contradiction could you please explain why not?


I don't see any contradiction. CL is a political action that calls a referendum listed on a PA card. The PA is played (per cardtext) as part of the resolution in order to call that referendum: for instance, if you don't have the PA card in hand anymore when CL resolves, the action fizzles. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/K9NPLoTKdPg/m/9FpwHnLL2JEJ
I don't see any issue in requiring both cards to be played in order to call the referendum.

Rulebook:
A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.

This is true and applies to CL. However, this doesn't preclude the PA card to be used in a exotic way to call a referendum.

Furthermore found these two rulings saying that the referendum is Charming Lobby´s effect and that the Charming Lobby action calls the referendum on a PA card in your hand.

Are you reversing the above 2 rulings? Or am I misunderstanding and they and your ruling can coexist?

The rulings are valid and are not contradictory with what is said above.

About Delaying Tactics:

Its text was changed from

The controller of the acting vampire takes the political action card (if any) back into his or her hand (and discards down to his or her hand size), and his or her vampires cannot attempt the same political action this turn.

which didn´t require the PA card to be played to call the referendum

to

If a political action card was played to call this referendum, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward).

which (in my opinion) now only enables a PA card played to call the referendum (i.e. only a PA card played normally) to be returned to its owner's hand

The PA card was played to call the referendum, so it is returned to its owner's hand by DT.

There is an inconsistency in that Delaying Tactics enables the return of a card that wasn´t played in a normal fashion when referring to a "played" card while at the same time having a ruling on Epikasta that says she isn´t allowed to return cards played in a non-normal fashion, where the ruling also clarifies it is applicable to the PA card played with Charming Lobby.

DT returns the political action card used to call the referendum. This applies to KRC. CL is not a PA card and doesn't qualify.
Epikasta returns the action card she played to initiate the action, at the end of that action. It's not the same.

4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?

Yes.


This should fall in under the same as above, used to call a referendum required the PA card to be used for taking the political action which it isn´t, Charming Lobby is the political action being taken that is used to call a referendum and per the rule, it shouldn't provide the vote in that case.

CL doesn't provide a vote since it's not a PA card. KRC provides a vote since "If a political action card was used to call the referendum, that card provides 1 vote for the acting vampire’s controller." (rulebook).

Here is a ruling to draw a parallel in that as the PA card doesn´t provide the inherent +1 stealth of the card to the action making the Charming Lobby action with a PA card still only be at +1 stealth total. If the stealth of the PA card isn't gained why would the vote be?

Because the PA card is not used to perform the action, it is used to call a referendum.

Another similar case where the vote isn´t gained is when playing Bujo where the only difference is that the PA card is in the ash heap and card text doesn´t explicitly say "(play the card)" but at the same time requirements of that political action must be met as if it was played.

Bujo doesn't play the card, that is the difference: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Tr3X4DsZr-8/m/O06iXN6LtzsJ

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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