file Aline Gädeke

09 Aug 2022 21:18 #105921 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Aline Gädeke
I'm with kschaefer and charmer on this one. The action is successful, the vampire is Anarch, I don't see why the fact that the vampire was not Anarch before the action would matter for Aline.

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09 Aug 2022 22:14 #105922 by Hobbesgoblin
Replied by Hobbesgoblin on topic Aline Gädeke

Seraph's Second can be used to untap a vampire who has just successfully resolved an action to become Black Hand. [LSJ 20070701]


This ruling should apply here.
Seraph's second is "Only usable when a non-Seraph Black Hand vampire is acting, after resolution." similar to Alines " after another Anarch performs a successful action", so same Ruling should apply.

Seraph's Second
The following user(s) said Thank You: lip

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10 Aug 2022 13:58 - 10 Aug 2022 14:00 #105926 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Aline Gädeke

The key question and precedent setter here is if an action is considered performed by a vampire with the sect/clan belonging that they had at the beginning or the end of the action (or potentially both).

This ruling would affect Aline Gädeke´s special in regards to both actions making a vampire Anarch and actions making a vampire non-Anarch

Ankha´s decision and explanation will be interesting.


In my opinion the key point here is WHEN does Aline check the condition.
The answer: after an action is successful. (obviously, it cant be any earlier)

If "become anarch" action is successful, then the acting vampire is an anarch. Therefore an anarch has performed a successful action and the condition is met. It is still the same vampire even if it changes sects.

My personal take is that Aline can unlock.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 10 Aug 2022 14:00 by Bloodartist.

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10 Aug 2022 16:09 - 10 Aug 2022 16:09 #105929 by KoRneeshon
Replied by KoRneeshon on topic Aline Gädeke

That is all true but maybe Aline does not care, because she says "after". The action ends, Aline takes a look and sees an Anarch that performed a successful action. Voila, now she can pay 1 blood to unlock, why not...

I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd say that would be true if her text was:
"(...) another Anarch you control performed a successful action."

But since it is:
"(...) another Anarch you control performs a successful action."
I think it implies that the Vampire has to be an Anarch while performing an action for her text to trigger.

Guess Ankha will tell...
Last edit: 10 Aug 2022 16:09 by KoRneeshon.

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10 Aug 2022 16:13 - 10 Aug 2022 16:15 #105930 by KoRneeshon
Replied by KoRneeshon on topic Aline Gädeke

Seraph's Second can be used to untap a vampire who has just successfully resolved an action to become Black Hand. [LSJ 20070701]


This ruling should apply here.
Seraph's second is "Only usable when a non-Seraph Black Hand vampire is acting, after resolution." similar to Alines " after another Anarch performs a successful action", so same Ruling should apply.

Seraph's Second


This is different since SS checks for the vampire being Seraph at the moment it is played. IMO AG text checks what she was while performing an action, not after. Her effect takes place after the action, but condition checks for the past state - that's my understanding
Last edit: 10 Aug 2022 16:15 by KoRneeshon.

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10 Aug 2022 21:27 - 10 Aug 2022 21:37 #105933 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Aline Gädeke

This is different since SS checks for the vampire being Seraph at the moment it is played. IMO AG text checks what she was while performing an action, not after.


No it doesn't. It says "after another anarch .. performs".
AFTER. The sentence refers to the past, and thus checks the condition after an action has been performed, not during it.

But this returns to the issues in the rulebook where "resolves" and "performs" are used interchangeably, despite "performing" not been adequately defined. In the rulebook its never clearly said when exactly has an action been "performed". Is it after an action has been attempted, or is it after it has resolved? The rulings will be very different depending on definition. For those writing the rulebook passages, I recommend you pick a word and use it throughout when speaking of a specific thing.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 10 Aug 2022 21:37 by Bloodartist.

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