file Oubliette and similar

01 Feb 2023 20:44 #107303 by Oracle.kid
Since there was a discussion in the discord about Oubliette, I looked up some of the mentioned rules and rulings. Now I am more confused than before..

The rulebook states explicitly

Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike (see First Strike), and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved


So for me, as a newbie, Oubliette should resolve logically as follows:
  • Strike: Combat ends
  • opponent's Dodge is not resolved
  • Combat Ends
  • Oubliette's damage is handeled after combat. No other strike resolution effects can modify it

However, in the discord, the conclusion was that the damage of the superior could be dodged since it was a damaging strike. And in some rulings I found is stated that the damage can be modified, e.g. by Target Vitals. Both seems contradictory to the explicit statements in the rulebook

So could maybe someone help me by clarifying:
  • How does a Dodge resolve while Oubliette in superior is still a Strike:Combat Ends?
  • If Target Vitals are no "other strike resolution effects", what are examples for these?

Thanks in advance! :)

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01 Feb 2023 21:17 - 01 Feb 2023 21:18 #107304 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Oubliette and similar
An attempt to explain....

So could maybe someone help me by clarifying:
  • How does a Dodge resolve while Oubliette in superior is still a Strike:Combat Ends?


Dodge always resolves regardless of the opponents strike being a Strike: Combat Ends, a strike with First Strike or otherwise....only exceptional cases are undodgeable strikes (e.g. Earthshock) which means the dodge still resolves but doesn´t provide protection against the undodgeable strike.

The dodge protects the minion against the delayed damaging effect from the strike of Oubliette and thus no damage is done from it.

  • If Target Vitals are no "other strike resolution effects", what are examples for these?


Target Vitals resolves immediately and sets up a delayed effect with a condition that has to be met for it to affect the damage being done.

An example of "other strike resolution effects" is Carrion Crows which is triggered in the normal strike resolution which is skipped when the combat is abruptly ended by a Strike: Combat Ends.
Last edit: 01 Feb 2023 21:18 by inm8.

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01 Feb 2023 22:14 #107305 by Oracle.kid
Replied by Oracle.kid on topic Oubliette and similar
Thanks :)


So could maybe someone help me by clarifying:
  • How does a Dodge resolve while Oubliette in superior is still a Strike:Combat Ends?


Dodge always resolves regardless of the opponents strike being a Strike: Combat Ends, a strike with First Strike or otherwise....only exceptional cases are undodgeable strikes (e.g. Earthshock) which means the dodge still resolves but doesn´t provide protection against the undodgeable strike.


What I don't understand here: How can the dodge resolve if the rulebook says it doesn't - at least in the way I read it.

Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, (...) and it ends combat before other strikes (...) are resolved.



Is it some kind of oral tradition passed down (as vtes seems to have once in a while)? :) Or are perhaps my english skills a limitation for understanding the rulebook proper?


The second explanation makes some sense for me. Carrion Crows is an example I know well. Is Target Vitals not a "other strike resolution effect" in the sense of the rulebook?

Btw: I found Catatonic Fear can be modified by Target Vitals, Oubliette cannot, because it doesn't say "damage" in the card text.

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02 Feb 2023 07:14 #107308 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Oubliette and similar

Thanks :)
What I don't understand here: How can the dodge resolve if the rulebook says it doesn't - at least in the way I read it.

Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, (...) and it ends combat before other strikes (...) are resolved.



Is it some kind of oral tradition passed down (as vtes seems to have once in a while)? :) Or are perhaps my english skills a limitation for understanding the rulebook proper?

There doesn´t seem to be any issues with your English skills, The rulebook isn´t being clear about the way Dodge work and should be improved. Dodge doesn´t follow the order of priority of strikes (1st Combat Ends, 2nd First Strike and 3rd Normal strikes) as it is always applied. The rule that you are quoting is adding to the confusion.

In my opinion all cards/effect go through a resolution to apply their effect or by setting up a delayed effect....whether Dodge "resolves" or not is moot for that the effect is applied when played protecting the minion and its equipments from offensive effects.

The second explanation makes some sense for me. Carrion Crows is an example I know well. Is Target Vitals not a "other strike resolution effect" in the sense of the rulebook?

Btw: I found Catatonic Fear can be modified by Target Vitals, Oubliette cannot, because it doesn't say "damage" in the card text.


"Burn blood" effects are not the same as "damaging" effects where the vampire burns blood to mend the damage at the damage resolution step.
Target Vitals care about damage not blood burning so that is the reason for it being applicable to Catatonic Fear and not Oubliette.
Target Vitals is not a "strike effect", it is an effect that requires a strike to be played for it to be playable and modifies any damage that is caused by that strike as a delayed effect with a condition to do so regardless if it is done in the combat or outside of it.

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02 Feb 2023 08:49 #107310 by Palamedes
Replied by Palamedes on topic Oubliette and similar
Oubliette and Target Vitals do not work together, because Oubliette burns blood, does not deal damage. But Target Vitals works with Catatonic Fear, which deals damage.

Oubliette
Warning: Spoiler!

Target Vitals
Warning: Spoiler!

Catatonic Fear
Warning: Spoiler!


Short answer to the question why strike: combat ends can be dodged is "Dodge strikes don't resolve. They are effective from the moment they're played." The full answer is here:

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/61804-catatonic-fear-question?start=6#61840

Dodge strikes don't resolve. They are effective from the moment they're played.
When the Catatonic Fear resolves, it ends combat then inflicts 1 damage. The dodge card played during combat will protect you from that damage.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/WUWh7AdooDU/8y8v9PpKmC8J

Since the damage is inflicted after combat has ended, you can't play a combat card to prevent it.

The key is the moment you play the card. You can play Strike: dodge during combat, and it will protect you from the effects from the strike, whether they happen right away, or later (eg. after combat, or even three turns later, hypothetically).
It's the same with Target Vitals + Catatonic Fear: TV modifies the damage from CF, even if it's dealt way later (after combat). But you were able to play TV during combat, so it's fine.

The following user(s) said Thank You: mondragon, Rémi, Oracle.kid

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02 Feb 2023 10:39 #107311 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Oubliette and similar
Very unintuitive and contradicting statements...does no good for this game and should be formulated differently and added to the rules.

Dodge strikes don't resolve. They are effective from the moment they're played.

The following user(s) said Thank You: mondragon, Oracle.kid

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