file Deflection

04 Dec 2023 15:06 #110004 by inm8
Deflection was created by inm8
Came across the below ruling that says playing Deflection implicitly means one has declined to block, this is from a time when the card text of it and other bounce cards didn´t have "after blocks are declined".

Please confirm that the ruling is no longer relevant/applicable to Deflection.

[LSJ 20000507]

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05 Dec 2023 06:09 - 05 Dec 2023 07:14 #110010 by PetriWessman
Replied by PetriWessman on topic Deflection
Why should it no longer be relevant? As you note, the card nowadays says "after blocks are declined", so playing one implicitly (still) means that no block attempt will be done. It's a small bit redundant now, sure, but it's still relevant & applicable imho.

It removes option to try to take back a Deflection and block instead, claiming that "I could not have played that since I have not declined to block yet". Clarity is always good and less judge headaches is even better :)

Or is there something in this ruling that causes confusion with modern wordings? Maybe I'm missing something here.
Last edit: 05 Dec 2023 07:14 by PetriWessman.

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05 Dec 2023 07:51 #110011 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Deflection

Why should it no longer be relevant? As you note, the card nowadays says "after blocks are declined", so playing one implicitly (still) means that no block attempt will be done. It's a small bit redundant now, sure, but it's still relevant & applicable imho.

It removes option to try to take back a Deflection and block instead, claiming that "I could not have played that since I have not declined to block yet". Clarity is always good and less judge headaches is even better :)

Or is there something in this ruling that causes confusion with modern wordings? Maybe I'm missing something here.


Correct. Playing Deflection is a shortcut for "I don't block, I assume you have no effects to play before I bounce".
Of course, since you're denying the impulse to the acting player after declining the block, that player can halt the reacting Methuselah and say: "wait, I want to play something after you decline to block, and before you get the impulse back" if it matters.

It's similar to someone who says "I punch for 1" at the start of the combat. It doesn't prevent the opposing Methuselah to play combat cards if they wish.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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05 Dec 2023 07:56 #110012 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Deflection
The reason why is because of the changed wording, it cannot be played until "after blocks are declined" and therefore Deflection can no longer be played before declining to block

In the past it was playable in the default window of reactions and thus the ruling was made that if it was played before "declining to block" it was to be considered an implicit "declining to block".

The only valid time to play bounces that are having the wording "after blocks are declined" is after the last bleed modifier window "after blocks are declined" (table state not the just the targeted Methuselah).

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05 Dec 2023 08:07 - 05 Dec 2023 08:07 #110013 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Deflection

In the past it was playable in the default window of reactions and thus the ruling was made that if it was played before "declining to block" it was to be considered an implicit "declining to block".

Thus it was considered to play after block attemps are declined, which is precisely the case. Bounces are played in C.2, and C is "C - blocks have been declined".
The ruling just says that if you're playing a Deflection, you've moved to C (skipping some impulse opportunity in the process).

The only valid time to play bounces that are having the wording "after blocks are declined" is after the last bleed modifier window "after blocks are declined" (table state not the just the targeted Methuselah).

Isn't that C?

A - there is no current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. in addition to any effect that can be used during an action (playing an action modifier or reaction card, using effects of cards in play etc.), a Methuselah who can block (see Who May Attempt to Block) can declare a block attempt, switching to B - there is a current block attempt
3. if a Methuselah passes, that Methuselah cannot declare any block attempt until the end of the action unless the target of the action changes.
4. once every Methuselah has passed, switch to C - blocks have been declined

B - there is a current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. the target of the action cannot be changed
3. the Methuselah who has declared the current block attempt may use effects that force the currently blocking to attempt to block (no other minion can attempt to block until this block attempt is resolved)
4. once every Methuselah has passed, the block attempt is resolved: if it is successful, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. Otherwise, switch back to A - there is no current block attempt

C - blocks have been declined
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. if the target of the action is changed, switch to A - there is no current block attempt
3. once every Methuselah has passed, the action is successful and resolves


www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/80792-declining-blocks-impulse-conditioning-and-eagle-s-sight?start=18#109200

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 05 Dec 2023 08:07 by Ankha.

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05 Dec 2023 08:16 - 06 Dec 2023 05:07 #110014 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Deflection
There is a difference between the steps A1 and C1, with the old text Deflection was playable in A1 and thus the ruling... this is no longer the case
Today's wording means we need to pass by A4 and get to C1 before it can be played.

Card Text
Deflection
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable if a minion is bleeding you, after blocks are declined.
[dom] Lock this reacting vampire. Change the target of the bleed to another Methuselah other than the acting minion's controller (that Methuselah can attempt to block).
[DOM] As above, but do not lock this vampire.
Last edit: 06 Dec 2023 05:07 by inm8.

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