Deflection

Ankha wrote:

inm8 wrote:

In the past it was playable in the default window of reactions and thus the ruling was made that if it was played before "declining to block" it was to be considered an implicit "declining to block".

Thus it was considered to play after block attemps are declined, which is precisely the case. Bounces are played in C.2, and C is "C - blocks have been declined".
The ruling just says that if you're playing a Deflection, you've moved to C (skipping some impulse opportunity in the process).

Are you saying that one can play it in A1 but consider it played in C1?
it would be an illegal play in my opinion.

Ankha wrote:

[

inm8 wrote:

The only valid time to play bounces that are having the wording "after blocks are declined" is after the last bleed modifier window "after blocks are declined" (table state not the just the targeted Methuselah).

Isn't that C?

One has to "decline to block" or pass without attempting to block to move to C which means Deflection cannot be played in A1 as an implicit "decline to block" and therefore it can only be played in C1 where it is no longer an "implicit decline to block" as one only move to C when "blocks are declined" (tables state)....this is why in my opinion the ruling is no longer relevant

Ankha could you please provide an answer to the above, thanks.

Ankha wrote:

Correct. Playing Deflection is a shortcut for "I don't block, I assume you have no effects to play before I bounce".
Of course, since you're denying the impulse to the acting player after declining the block, that player can halt the reacting Methuselah and say: "wait, I want to play something after you decline to block, and before you get the impulse back" if it matters.

It's similar to someone who says "I punch for 1" at the start of the combat. It doesn't prevent the opposing Methuselah to play combat cards if they wish.

I am pretty sure that this answer your question :
By the book you have to decline to block and give the impulse to everybody who would each one decline to block etc etc to play deflection.
But, in a real game, in the same way that you replace your cards without asking for each one of them if A, B, C and D want to cancel this one.
Sometimes, you play deflection too soon.
It is an illegal play because you deny your opponents a bunch of impulse. But it is still often played like that without (most of the time) any big bad consequences for your opponents. Most of the time, you just skipped the phase when your predator would have played a bleed increase effect and your predator is glad for the intel that you intend to play deflection and therefore keep his conditionning for the one bleed which will not be bounced.
And for the times when it is relevant (for whatever reasons), it is kind of easy to roll back.

Tl dr : it is an illegal move but most of the time, there is no bad consequences for your opponents and so it is often played like that.

Timo wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Correct. Playing Deflection is a shortcut for "I don't block, I assume you have no effects to play before I bounce".
Of course, since you're denying the impulse to the acting player after declining the block, that player can halt the reacting Methuselah and say: "wait, I want to play something after you decline to block, and before you get the impulse back" if it matters.

It's similar to someone who says "I punch for 1" at the start of the combat. It doesn't prevent the opposing Methuselah to play combat cards if they wish.

I am pretty sure that this answer your question :

I disagree with the above being a valid answer

How an illegal play out of sequence is handled has nothing to do with the ruling being questioned.
The ruling is from a time when the card text allowed it to be played before declining to block which is no longer the case, as it now isn't legally playable until blocks are declined the ruling is no longer relevant... the shortcut is no longer legally possible

I guess you should read this thread :

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/h3onVZ1NqpQ/m/-o6GxslIQF8J

It gives a lot of insight about what is behind the above ruling which seems to me that it already was an illegal play to play a deflection without giving the impulse to players C D and E to let them block.

Notably that :

LSJ
12 déc. 2006, 17:45:51
à
sutekh_23 wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>> Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
>>> "LSJ" <> schreef in bericht
>>> news:BFifh.6764$...
>>>> Jeroen wrote:
>>>>> I was searching the NG and I found this:
>>>>> groups.google.be/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f4e7d18691d047b3?dmode=source&hl=nl
>>>>> "Declaring that one is not blocking is implicit in playing Deflection
>>>>> (unlike playing Telepathic Counter). [LSJ 30-AUG-1999]
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't find that ruling on the the clarifications and rulings page.
>>>> Yes.
>>> Is there any reason in particular it's not on the rulings page? It seems we
>>> were not the only people who played it wrong.
>> No reason at all. It simply hadn't been added, since the confusion over the
>> issue had not been raised until now, as far as I know.
>>
>> I'm adding it now (and adding clarifications to the bounce cards' texts).
>
> My 2 cents, for what it's worth
>
> When you announce the action "I'm going to bleed you for X" you ask
> your prey (assuming no kindred spirits/night moves) are you going to
> block (NOT are you going to redirect the bleed), if they say no, you
> then ask if anyone else wishes to block (via eagles sight or Anneke).
> After this the block window on the action is closed.
Or other reactions can be played before the Methuselah says "I don't block".
For instance, he can play Telepathic Counter (maybe hoping to cycle into some
intercept, for example).

Of course, per the ruling, Deflection is not among the reactions that fit in
that window. Deflection is played only after declining to block.

Thanks for finding the thread Timo

The ruling makes even less sense now… Deflection was implicitly illegal to play before blocks are declined and is now explicitly illegal to play before blocks are declined…

when was/would one legally be able to benefit from the implied “declining to block” when playing Deflection?

Does this ruling make the illegal play allowed? If not, what purpose does it serve?