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question-circle Change of clan, change of sect.

24 Apr 2024 22:37 #111258 by lip
Change of clan, change of sect. was created by lip
A technical question for rulings completeness.

There are a few rulings on changes of sect, especially the ones around Writ of Acceptance , see [ANK 20190619] .

The current state of affairs, I think, is that you need to distinguish permanent changes from temporary changes. The temporary ones always overlay the permanent ones, and between two effects of the same category, the most recent one takes precedence. Go Anarch or the default rulebook action to go anarch, for example, exert a permanent change, that gets overridden by Writ of Acceptance if it is on the vampire to start with (potentially burning Go Anarch immediately).

This got complicated (or simplified) by [RTR 20201130] that states that a clan change no longer operates a switch to the "default sect", since clans have no default sects anymore. So most of the Clan Impersonation examples from the past don't work anymore ☺︎

But, Clan Impersonation is still a temporary clan change, same as Derange for example. If both of them are on a vampire, the most recent to arrive gets precedence because they're both temporary.

This begs the following questions:
  • Are Barbaro Lucchese 's and Qadir ul-Ghani 's abilities permanent clan changes? Meaning if they have a Derange on them, using their ability does not remove the Malkavian overlay, but changes the underlying clan?
    I would guess yes.
  • What about Revelation of the Sire ?
    • Is it a temporary change or a permanent one? What happens if the Caitiff had a Derange ?
      If it's temporary, it override the Derange. If it's permanent, the temporary Derange overlay stays on top.
    • Even without a Derange, what happens if the Revelation is removed, for example by Smear Campaign ?
      If it's a temporary clan change, it should go away if the card goes away. If it's a permanent change (like Go Anarch), the clan stays and the vampire only loses the bonus capacity when the card is removed, I guess (like Praxis titles with capacity bonus)? Would it make sense to keep the clan and lose the capacity?
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25 Apr 2024 06:31 #111261 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Change of clan, change of sect.
The underlying sect has nothing to do with the (no longer existing) default sect.
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25 Apr 2024 06:45 #111262 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Change of clan, change of sect.
Well hm, ok but that does not really answer my questions. I'll try clearer and more explicit versions:
  • If Barbaro Lucchese has a Derange on him making him Malkavian and he uses his ability to become Tremere Antitribu, does he stay Malkavian or become Tremere Antitribu?
  • If a Caitiff has a Derange on him making him Malkavian and a Revelation of the Sire is played to make him Ventrue, does he stay Malkavian or become Ventrue?
  • If a Caitiff has a Revelation of the Sire on him making him Ventrue, what happens if it gets destroyed by a Smear Campaign? Does he stay Ventrue or become Caitiff again? Does he lose the capacity bonus?

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25 Apr 2024 07:58 #111264 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Change of clan, change of sect.
Here bleow is LSJ´s definition of whether a card imposes a permanent change or a temporary (layered) one which to me seems to be having contradictions when Derange was ruled to function similar to Clan Impersonation [PIB 20110807] [ANK 20200415]

> > > So what is the criteria for certain library cards being "temporary"
> > > and others being "permanent"? It would be nice to know how you
> > > differentiate the two, in case a similar situation comes up while
> > > someone is judging a tournament, or in casual play where one cannot
> > > simply ask on the news group.
>
> > Go Anarch implies its function by removing itself when sect changes.
>
> > Which others are causing confusion?
>
> It's not a question about specific cards. The whole point is to
> understand how the rules are implemented. Every person who plays this
> game should be able to answer these sorts of questions without having
> to ask a question on a Google forum. The rules for understanding how
> cards interact with one another should be clear in the official
> rulebook.
>
> So, it seems, your criteria for whether a card carries a "temporary"
> change or a "permanent" change is whether it has some sort of clause
> allowing for its removal?
No, not "some sort", but a very specific sort: that is, if the thing
the card sets is changed, remove the card. The sort of thing that
makes the card work like Title cards. (Titles also do not layer.)

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/kGKWcs3k6vI/m/OSnx93gGyIsJ


Does this mean that the above is reversed and we don´t have a clear definition of what makes a permanent effect vs a temporary (layered) effect ???


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25 Apr 2024 09:37 - 25 Apr 2024 09:39 #111266 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Change of clan, change of sect.

Are Barbaro Lucchese 's and Qadir ul-Ghani 's abilities permanent clan changes?

Yes, due to the way it is written ("change the clan").

Meaning if they have a Derange on them, using their ability does not remove the Malkavian overlay, but changes the underlying clan?

Correct.

What about Revelation of the Sire ?
Is it a temporary change or a permanent one?

Temporary, due to the way it is written ("is considered...")

What happens if the Caitiff had a Derange ?

It depends which one was played last (the last change takes precedence). If Derange was played after Revelation of the Sire, the vampire is Malkavian or !Malkavian. Otherwise, the vampire is considered to be of the clan of the sire.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/kQpR-Cn9nW0/m/0cNMARSt9PIJ

Even without a Derange, what happens if the Revelation is removed, for example by Smear Campaign ?
If it's a temporary clan change, it should go away if the card goes away.

Correct. The underlying clan becomes effective again.

If Barbaro Lucchese has a Derange on him making him Malkavian and he uses his ability to become Tremere Antitribu, does he stay Malkavian or become Tremere Antitribu?

He stays Malkavian. His underlying clan changes to Tremere Antitribu (the clan he'll become part again once the Derange is gone).

If a Caitiff has a Derange on him making him Malkavian and a Revelation of the Sire is played to make him Ventrue, does he stay Malkavian or become Ventrue?

He becomes Ventrue, since Revelation of the Sire was played last.

If a Caitiff has a Revelation of the Sire on him making him Ventrue, what happens if it gets destroyed by a Smear Campaign? Does he stay Ventrue or become Caitiff again? Does he lose the capacity bonus?

He reverts to his underlying clan, that is Caitiff, and lose his capacity increase (granted by the card).
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Last edit: 25 Apr 2024 09:39 by Ankha.
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25 Apr 2024 09:45 #111267 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Change of clan, change of sect.

Here bleow is LSJ´s definition of whether a card imposes a permanent change or a temporary (layered) one which to me seems to be having contradictions when Derange was ruled to function similar to Clan Impersonation [PIB 20110807] [ANK 20200415]

> > > So what is the criteria for certain library cards being "temporary"
> > > and others being "permanent"? It would be nice to know how you
> > > differentiate the two, in case a similar situation comes up while
> > > someone is judging a tournament, or in casual play where one cannot
> > > simply ask on the news group.
>
> > Go Anarch implies its function by removing itself when sect changes.
>
> > Which others are causing confusion?
>
> It's not a question about specific cards. The whole point is to
> understand how the rules are implemented. Every person who plays this
> game should be able to answer these sorts of questions without having
> to ask a question on a Google forum. The rules for understanding how
> cards interact with one another should be clear in the official
> rulebook.
>
> So, it seems, your criteria for whether a card carries a "temporary"
> change or a "permanent" change is whether it has some sort of clause
> allowing for its removal?
No, not "some sort", but a very specific sort: that is, if the thing
the card sets is changed, remove the card. The sort of thing that
makes the card work like Title cards. (Titles also do not layer.)

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/kGKWcs3k6vI/m/OSnx93gGyIsJ


Does this mean that the above is reversed

There are so many things above, I don't know exactly what you are refering to.
The clarification about Valerius vs Infernal Insurgent is correct.

and we don´t have a clear definition of what makes a permanent effect vs a temporary (layered) effect ???

"changes clan", "becomes"... are permanent effects.
"the attached/this vampire is...", "is considered..." etc. are temporary effects (active as long as the card granting the effect is there).
Prince of Paris, France
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