Failing action before block attempts

Another followup:

If the AI ruling is the reference, does that mean "failing the action" has to be played "after blocks are declined"?

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/37EYK3FA30k/m/QynliahgIzQJ

Hobbesgoblin wrote:

Another followup:

If the AI ruling is the reference, does that mean "failing the action" has to be played "after blocks are declined"?

That would break existing rulings on playing HtH cross table (such as the discussion in www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/72462-hide-the-heart-timing-questions#72626)

Ankha wrote:

Full quote is:

> Before block attempts are declared?
Yes.

> After block attempts are declared?
Yes.

I read it as: you can play the card either before or after block attempts (but not during per the Archon Investigation ruling).

I question the above interpretation. The full quote is actually per below.
Clearly it is being asked considering the 3 possible steps related to blocking....

"are declared" is an important part of the sentences making up the questions.


"before block attempts are declared" - explicitly clear

"after block attempts are declared" - not explicit, but by the follow-on question, it is clear that it refers to "while attempting to block, i.e., after declaring an attempt to block before the outcome of the attempt ... if it didnt, it would make it moot as it is the same as the step before or after this

"After a block is successful" - explicitly clear

> At what points during an action is there a window to play Hide the
> Heart at basic Valeren?
The standard reaction window:
After "as announced" and before action resolution.

> In the "as the action is declared" window?

No.

> Before block attempts are declared?

Yes.

> After block attempts are declared?

Yes.

> After a block is successful, but before combat begins (ie, the Change
> of Target/Obedience window)?

Resolution, no.

> During a referendum?

Resolution, no.

> My prey declares an attempt to bleed his prey. May I play Hide the
> Heart before my grandprey chooses whether or not to attempt to block?
> (I'm not sure how the impulse works in that situation.)

No.
Impulse works as given in "sequencing" [1.6.1.5]

Ankha,

There are now split rulings on Scobax and I question your statement that there is no conflict between play windows and that all action fails effects are banned from being played during a block attempt.

It is my belief that you have missinterpreted what 'after blocks are declared' means. That it does not mean, after resolving all block attempts, but during a block attempt as well.

The split rulings on Scobax are below.

[Striga]
/ [Superior Striga]
Can be played/used any time during the action before resolution; a block attempt is not required. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/sC0pTtJJDj4/m/bD04Jy4pM_cJ[LSJ 20020612]
[Superior Striga]
Cannot be used while a block is being attempted, or has already been successful. www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/82895-failing-action-before-block-attempts#116669 [ANK 20260316]
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/gqhND6kd2wE/m/LDmEotxa_4kJ[LSJ 20041022]

From this thread it seems you are implying that you cannot play Scobax at 'superior' during a block attempt. However it explicitly is allowed to be played because it reduces stealth. Following the LSJ ruling on Ignis Fatuus it is even allowed to be played when a block attempt will be successful but before resolution of that block attempt occurs.

The ruling you quote about Archon Investigation timing no longer seems valid. The card has been explicitly reworded to "after blocks are declined" as have all other cards restricted to that window, ie deflection, redirection etc.

Further the original logic being quoted was, "So it must be the case that AI is played only after the blocking window is closed (like Deflection), since attempting to end the action (without blocking) implies that you have decided not to block." However with Scobax since one of the major effects it to reduce the acting minions stealth it cannot be assumed that your attempt to end the action mean's you don't intend to block as decreased stealth is quite often in fact used to allow a block.

Similarly playing Hide the Heart does not imply you don't intend to block, it implies you want them to burn a blood before you get involved. LSJ's original ruling on the matter in 2007, started with the words "Hmm. A bit hazy there." and focused specifically on a deflection style timing for a single card. It further seems to have been invalidated both because the card Archon Investigation was reworded and in the later 2010 ruling that explicitly allows the playing of Hide the Heart after a block attempt is declared.

The only restriction on play described for hide the heart is after a block attempt has reached resolution. Effects such as starshell grendade launcher can explicitly be used even when a block will be successful but before the resolution of that block begins, per the ruling on ignus fatus
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/sC0pTtJJDj4/m/bD04Jy4pM_cJ

where it is explicitly stated that you can play it even if the acting minions stealth does not exceed any blockers intercept. which means that the timing of 'after blocks are declared' does include during that block attempt.

So the Archon Investigation Ruling cannot be used as a blanket for all or perhaps even most action fails effects as those should, if such was the intent, have the updated text of "after blocks are declined"

I've realized a simpler explanation why the Archon Investigation ruling does not apply and the two rulings are incompatible.

If the AI ruling applies as interpreted you can only play cards that end an action after blocks are declined.
The Hide the Heart ruling explicitly allows it to be played before then even interpreted to restrict when you can play.

If those two statements are both true, they are incompatible. Thus at least one is false. As the AI ruling for timing has been both clarified by card text and doesn't explicitly refer to a card that ends the action by card text it seems clear that it does not apply, and so regular timing of cards should govern the play of end the action cards.