Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

27 Jun 2026 13:40 #117284 by Kilrauko

Replied by Kilrauko on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

mipopo3 wrote:
...

I don't get it?

....

That much is obvious, allow me try to spell it out for you as much as I'm able given the limited time.

You are methusaleh A at 15 pool, your only vampire in play is 11 cap anarch Call the Great Beast who has chosen superior Presence, Temporis and Quietus. They have five blood on them. In addition your prey Methusaleh B has played Barrenness at Maleficia level on your controlled Call the Great Beast, they have no minions in play and are at 25 pool. You have played four master disciplines on your controlled Call the Great Beast, they are 2 Obfuscate, 2 Dementation. In your uncontrolled region is vampire banished by methuselah C.That vampire is Call the Great beast with superior presence, temporis and quietus chosen but without the disciplines played on them and they have 8 blood on them. Your crypt is empty as all the other vampires you had have been Graverobbed across the table to methuselah D who has then played The Name Forgotten equally on them and used one to diablerize another resulting in your crypt becoming empty. In your ash heap you have 4 Call the Great Beasts and other cards there have been burned away by Trochomancy by your predator methuselah E who has attempted to bleed you but can no longer do that due to having no minions.

1) You have Summon history in your hand, you decide to play it at superior at 0 blood, what happens? You complete the action successfully and search for 0 capacity vampire but as there is no targets you can find, you can not put vampire to play.

2) You have Undue Influence in your hand, you decide to play it at quietus, what happens?
You are trying to put vampire into play with sterile vampire. Despite your arguments how Sterile is just a word on Barrenness and it does not say anything about not being able to put vampire into play judge rules you are cheating as you have been in argument over it at VEKN forum, clearly know the rules and are deliberately mispotraying the rules, you get 163. Cheating - Fraud and disqualification without Prize as there should be zero tolerance for this type of activity.

3) You have Call the Great Beast at hand, you decide to play it, what happens?
You are trying to put vampire into play that self contests. Despite your arguments how you are not putting vampire into play judge rules you are cheating as you have been in argument over it at VEKN forum, clearly know the rules and are deliberately mispotraying the rules, you get 163. Cheating - Fraud and disqualification without Prize as there should be zero tolerance for this type of activity.

4) You have Undue Influence in your hand, you decide to play it at presence, what happens? You bleed successfully and add 1 blood to the chosen vampire.

Compare the end results and you might see how they are not similar and in fact different. You can also see why it's important that rules questions are not left with what if or mayhaps answers as their consequences to new players during tournament play might be quite harsh, hence Ankha has not changed their first reply to the question and if there is a change, it will be clearly marked and announced.

Feel free to ponder the difference of the above scenario if there was no Barrenness on your vampire and if the vampire in your uncontrolled region was instead Annazir at 8 blood that escaped the Name Forgotten due to being only copy you own.
How would Undue Influence work at quietus?
How would Call the Great Beast?

Notice the difference and what is the limiting factor. Now take the discipline cards away but change the Banished vampire back to Call the Great Beast at 8 blood.
How would Undue Influence work at quietus?
How would Call the Great Beast when the calling vampire is at 9 capacity?
Notice what actions put vampires into play, when and how.

Please read this reply carefully, use proxy cards to play it out if you have hard time following what is happening in the example. Read the card texts, as there are multiples I have put them behind spoiler this time, they are paramount to understanding this. Do not attempt to shorten them, change their locations or invent your own layouts while going through the scenario outlines as this is not suggestions thread, but a rules question thread that deals with the game as it is now.

Warning: Spoiler!

Name: Call the Great Beast
[BL:R1, KMW:PB, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Baali
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action.
Put this card with X ritual counters on this Baali, where X is this Baali's capacity. This Baali can put 1 ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. If this card has 11 or more ritual counters, move this card to your ready region, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines; this card becomes a 9-capacity unique clanless Independent infernal vampire with 4 strength, 3 bleed, the chosen three Disciplines at the superior level and 9 blood who can enter combat with a minion as a (D) action and can prevent 1 damage each combat.
Artist: Fred Hooper

Name: Barrenness
[HttB:R]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Maleficia
Burn Option
+1 stealth action.
[mal] (D) Put this card on a vampire and unlock this acting vampire. This vampire is sterile and his or her capacity decreases by 2 (to a minimum of 1.) [mal] is not a Discipline.
[MAL] (D) Burn a vampire whose capacity is 1.
Artist: Veronica Jones

Name: Maleficia
[HttB:C]
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on an infernal vampire. This vampire may play cards that require Maleficia [mal] (not a Discipline). With two of these cards, he or she may play cards that require superior Maleficia [MAL]. Burn this card if this vampire is not infernal.
Artist: Aaron Acevedo

www.vekn.net/rulebook

Sterile: Sterile vampires cannot perform actions to put other vampires in play.

Name: Obfuscate
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, Sabbat:C, SW:C, FN:PS, CE:C, KMW:PB, Third:PM/SKM1, KoT:PM2, NB2:PMi1]
Cardtype: Master
Discipline.
Put this card on a vampire. This vampire gets +1 level of Obfuscate [obf] and +1 capacity. Cannot be put on a vampire with superior Obfuscate [OBF].
Artist: Lawrence Snelly; John Bridges

Name: Dementation
[Sabbat:C, SW:C, CE:C/PM2, Third:PM/SKM1, KoT:PM, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Master
Discipline.
Put this card on a vampire. This vampire gets +1 level of Dementation [dem] and +1 capacity. Cannot be put on a vampire with superior Dementation [DEM].
Artist: Alan Rabinowitz; Brian LeBlanc

Name: Graverobbing
AKA: Grave Robbing
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTr, KMW:PAl, Third:PTr, LotN:PG, KoT:U, HttB:PSal, NB3:PL1, SV5:PDeath2]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dominate
[dom] (D) Steal a vampire in torpor controlled by another Methuselah.
[DOM] As above, and this acting vampire can burn 2 blood to move the stolen vampire to your ready region.
Artist: Edward Beard, Jr.; Mike Danza

Name: The Name Forgotten
[KMW:R]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
[tha] (D) Put this card on a ready unique vampire. If the vampire with this card is burned, he or she is removed from the game instead, and all Methuselahs remove all other vampires with the same name in their crypts, uncontrolled regions and ash heaps from the game as well (shuffle all crypts afterward).
[THA] As above, but this action is at +1 stealth.
Artist: John Bridges

Name: Trochomancy
[LotN:C, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Auspex & Necromancy
Only usable during a bleed action.
[nec] Remove thirteen cards in the target Methuselah's ash heap from the game to get +1 bleed (limited).
[aus][nec] As [nec] above, but remove only seven cards.
[AUS][NEC] As [aus][nec] above, but for +2 bleed (limited).
Artist: Imaginary Friends Studios

Name: Summon History
[HttB:R, Anthology:3, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Temporis
[tem] Search your library (shuffle afterward) and/or ash heap for an ally, retainer or equipment card costing X or fewer blood or pool and put that card in play, on this vampire and with life equal to its starting life if applicable.
[TEM] Search your crypt (shuffle afterward) and/or ash heap for a non-scarce vampire card with capacity X or less and put that vampire in play (with no blood).
Artist: Andrew Hepworth

Name: Undue Influence
[KMW:C, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Chimerstry/Presence/Quietus
+1 stealth action. Requires an Anarch. Choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
[chi] (D) Move 1 blood from a crypt card in any uncontrolled region to the chosen vampire.
[pre] (D) Bleed. If the bleed is successful, add 1 blood to the chosen vampire.
[qui] Add 1 blood to the chosen vampire. If the amount of blood equals or exceeds their capacity, move them to your ready region.
Artist: Alexander Dunnigan

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/TTTcFJZ_lXo/m/nMQq7DhyQvsJ

LSJ
Nov 5, 2009, 3:19:50 PM
to
Morgan Vening wrote:
> What if Jibade goes Into the Fire, is given a Quietus Skill card. Does
> he gain stealth for Undue Influence?

Only if that Undue Influence action will put a vampire into play.

www.vekn.net/judges-guide

163. Cheating - Fraud

Definition:

A player intentionally misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.

Example:

A player uses a fake name and V:EKN number when registering for a tournament.

Philosophy:

There should be zero tolerance for this type of activity.

Penalty:

Disqualification without Prize.

Name: Annazir
[HttB:U/A2, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Baali
Group: 5
Capacity: 9
Discipline: DAI OBF POT PRE
Independent. 2 votes (titled): Annazir can burn a location or steal an equipment as a (D) action. Infernal. +1 bleed.
Artist: Nicolas Bigot

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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Kilrauko
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Methuselah

29 Jun 2026 09:06 #117289 by mipopo3

Replied by mipopo3 on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

mipopo3 wrote:
At the end of the day, as much as I do like to continue this back and forth, we still need to address the Call the Great Beast with new text

Warning: Spoiler!

+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile Baali.
Put this card with X ritual counters on this Baali, where X is this Baali's capacity. This Baali can put 1 ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. If this card has 11 or more ritual counters, move this card to your ready region, burn this Baali, and choose three superior level Disciplines for this vampire; this card becomes a 9-capacity unique clanless Independent infernal vampire with 4 strength, 3 bleed, put 9 blood on this card, this vampire can enter combat with a minion as a Ⓓ action and can prevent 1 damage each combat.

And

"You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily play a card that would trigger a contest with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card)." added in the rulebook

Ankha, what is the final ruling on this?

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mipopo3
Away
Elder

29 Jun 2026 20:26 #117292 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

mipopo3 wrote:

mipopo3 wrote:
At the end of the day, as much as I do like to continue this back and forth, we still need to address the Call the Great Beast with new text

Warning: Spoiler!

+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile Baali.
Put this card with X ritual counters on this Baali, where X is this Baali's capacity. This Baali can put 1 ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. If this card has 11 or more ritual counters, move this card to your ready region, burn this Baali, and choose three superior level Disciplines for this vampire; this card becomes a 9-capacity unique clanless Independent infernal vampire with 4 strength, 3 bleed, put 9 blood on this card, this vampire can enter combat with a minion as a Ⓓ action and can prevent 1 damage each combat.

And

"You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily play a card that would trigger a contest with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card)." added in the rulebook

Ankha, what is the final ruling on this?

Ruling hasn't changed, it's given here: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83053-call-of-the-great-beast-and-self-contest?start=0#117261

"you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself" (rulebook) already covers this case. Nergal is 11-cap, so taking the CtGB action will result in putting in play a unique vampire you already control, which is forbidden.

Prince of Paris, France

Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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Ankha
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Inconnu

29 Jun 2026 20:49 - 29 Jun 2026 21:05 #117293 by mipopo3

Replied by mipopo3 on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

Ankha wrote:
... "you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself" (rulebook) already covers this case. ....

The wording is vague; it needs to be updated, as we can see from this original question.
(edit) I have had this question regarding how you can't contest yourself put to me a couple of times, as it's not translating well. (edit)

What is the ruling regarding the card update to match the existing ruling for sterile vampires?

Last edit: 29 Jun 2026 21:05 by mipopo3.

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mipopo3
Away
Elder

01 Jul 2026 16:55 #117304 by Jesper

Replied by Jesper on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

I know this is not gonna change anything. But at least once (maybe more) I have had LSJ rule the oppersit. As the action is to put a card into play and the card is not unique. What happens after that point the card do not know.

Same as 'back in the days' I could govern down on a vampire I already had in play. Even the action would cause a self contest later in the influence phase.

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Jesper
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Elder

02 Jul 2026 19:09 #117308 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic Call of the Great Beast and self-contest

Jesper wrote:
I know this is not gonna change anything. But at least once (maybe more) I have had LSJ rule the oppersit. As the action is to put a card into play and the card is not unique. What happens after that point the card do not know.

It is known when you play the card.

Jesper wrote:
Same as 'back in the days' I could govern down on a vampire I already had in play. Even the action would cause a self contest later in the influence phase.

The vampire wouldn't go out during the resolution of Govern the Unaligned, it isn't the same at all.

You couldn't play Undue Influence at [qui] that would cause self-contest.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-k869Xz4rj8/m/keDevivx8UMJ

About the old influence rules:

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Tg9ur6DcuYs/m/WkhE45LNnZoJ

Prince of Paris, France

Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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Ankha
Offline
Inconnu

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Call of the Great Beast and self-contest