On Villein. 1. "problematic card"

Lech wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Isanwayen wrote:

There are more card that target by name, even in AH there were some.

Please give examples of cards making other named cards more expensive to play or that otherwise destroy or cancel cards by name. I'm curious. I know that in AH there was Anachronism that mentioned the Ivory Bow by name, but actually made it more playable.

Lech wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Isanwayen wrote:

And to be fair,better cards that have the same opportunity to play make worse cards unplayable, like aforementioned meat cleaver and flak jacket and day operation are all wallpapers.

They are only wallpaper if you own copies of the later "improvements". I don't own any Kevlar Vests, but that doesn't mean that I can't successfully play with Flak Jackets in, say, a Burst of Sunlight deck.

Aaron wrote:

Please give examples of cards making other named cards more expensive to play or that otherwise destroy or cancel cards by name. I'm curious. I know that in AH there was Anachronism that mentioned the Ivory Bow by name, but actually made it more playable.

Contracts cannot be played on Iliana (originally there was just a single Contract card, nowadays it's a trait of certain cards).

Ecstasy, The Jones and XTC-Laced Blood cannot target Johann Matheson.

Aleister Crowley can't be targeted by Frenzies, while Frenzies cost an additional pool when played against Lord Aaron Wesley Wilkshire.


For "benefits":

Bindusara specifically references Elder Library, Arcane Library, and Fragment (though as a benefit not a prohibition).

Crusader Sword specifically references True Faith (as a potential requirement)

Advanced Lambach references the Eye of Hazimel.

Advanced Karsh reference the Blood Hunt card.

Several vampires reference each other. Edith & Enid Blount. Humo & Greensleeves. Margaret Milliner references Francis, Aabbt Kindred reference Nefertiti, and Advanced Menele references Helena.

I'm surprised you forgot Vassily Taltos, who can destroy a Blood Doll as action.

I may be wrong, but I think that Aleister Crowley and Lord Aaron Wesley Wilkshire's texts refer to cards of the frenzy type, not just the library card "Frenzy".

So there are a few crypt cards that have protection from types of cards. Iliana (when printed but not now), Tarautas, Johann Matheson, and Vassily Taltos mention specific cards by name, and only Tarautas has the effect of actually hosing Blood Doll and Minion Tap in such a way as to significantly interfere with pool management. And there can only be one Tarautas in play, whereas there can be multiple Villeins in play.

Aaron wrote:

I'm surprised you forgot Vassily Taltos, who can destroy a Blood Doll as action.

Well, I was starting with vampires from older sets, but in hindsight it might have made more sense to look at the newer vampires.

I may be wrong, but I think that Aleister Crowley and Lord Aaron Wesley Wilkshire's texts refer to cards of the frenzy type, not just the library card "Frenzy".

Yes, but Frenzies are a narrow enough category I thought it would be appropriate. Similarly with Sean Rycek and his ability to burn Boons.

Oh and Preternatural Strength prevents you from using Torn Signpost.

And on the benefit side, you also have Ur-Shulgi and Tajdid.

I count 10 different frenzy cards - hardly a narrow category. There are no cards that increase the cost of all frenzy cards, for example.

I wasn't asking about cards that just mention other cards by name - I was trying to find cards that negatively affect other specifically named cards, and as you've shown there are very few of them apart from some rarely-played crypt cards.

Even if the poll is launched, there is three points that I would want to see considered with villein.

* it's all but unavailable. It's very frustrating. Having a card with the same kind of effect on big caps in the next extension would be very useful. By "same kind of effect", I mean a trifle or something equally cheap that help recoup significantly the cost of a big vampire

* it significantly change the way big caps are played. I mean, without villein / minion tap, big vampire are very resilient because they have a lot of blood. Villein make them much more like smallish vampire with better discipline selection. It's not problematic gameplay-wise, but it is fun-wise for me.

* it allow too much big caps. Decks that intent to use multiple inner circle or 10-caps make me scringe. Once again it's a storytelling / fun issue and not a gameplay one

In my opinion, I would change Villein to be more-grooming the protege like, I.E. the blood does not go in your pool but on a younger vampire. It would resolve the bloat problem by making it much more slow, it would also make hard to play a lot of very big caps vampires.