Limit master cards?

RoddimusPrime wrote:

So if I am to try one out is there one you recommend?

I appreciate that you have an open mind. I suggest running one of the "Girls Will Find Aids" [ANI] combat versions as a starting point. Hugh's version from NAC First Chance looks really solid.

It's more fun to play (and play against) than some because it does interact with the table - the primary reason I recommend it. It fits a smackdown metagame more than some others, too.

Keep in mind that playing these decks can require some practice to play quickly - they can convolute a part of the game we're not used to being complicated

This entire discussion is getting so old and repetitive it's unbelievable.

Girls was strong, people figured it out, and suddenly girls isn't so hot anymore. It's bullshit it's unbeatable and needs the table to gang up on it. It's bullshit it gets 4 free MPA's a turn from the get-go. It's bullshit it recycles 2+ cards every turn and it's bullshit it has infinite pool. Smart players know this and play the deck's weakness instead of moaning about its strenght.

Yes, by now we know you don't have Ashur Tablets. Really.

Recently people started playing Anson Gun Ashur more which is strong but hardly much better than Anson Gun without the Ashur Tablets. Also, when people just meta against guns in general it's trash and gets 0 or 0,5 VP.

I appreciate that you have an open mind. I suggest running one of the "Girls Will Find Aids" [ANI] combat versions as a starting point. Hugh's version from NAC First Chance looks really solid.

Having played almost a direct copy of that at a recent tournamnt, I cannot recommend it, actually. It's WAY, WAY, WAY too slow to start up and it doesn't actually oust very quick either. Yes, it's hard to oust, but staying alive is not the goal of the game. Also. the argument about interaction is quite untrue. That decks needs about 7 turns to actually start doing something.

The bleed variant that sports obfuscate and thaumaturgy stealth is way more likely to actually win games and also more fun to play.

If you want an interaction type of deck, I suggest you look into a version of Martin Schumacher's Wax on Wax off (it's in the TWDA somewhere). That actually interacts with the table because it's a rush deck and doesn't really play that many masters. Just the Liquidation/Ashur module to pool buffer against bleeders and recycle the combat. Of course at that point we have moved away from the whole girls... theme.

So if it's girls... you're after, take Erik's LV/EC day 1 deck from Paris and give that a shot. You will quickly find glaring weaknesses and problems you will have to play around while pretending to have what everyone in this thread thinks you have, which you actually don't.

Ashur wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

See also: Imbued. They seemed unbeatable in 2007. In 2012? Not really the threat they once were.

Eh? Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality was banned.

Imbued were still strong and still complained about after those cards were banned. If you don't like that example, pick another. Tupdogs were supposedly unbeatable. The same was said of Khazar's Diary decks or really whatever Orian Gissler was playing for a while.

Thanks for the perspective Isaak.

I never said Girls X was unbeatable. There's really no such thing.

I don't recall saying that people need to gang up on it (any more than they need to gang up on the Imbued, etc).

I did say that the general MMPA archetype with Liq/Tab/Villein/Lilith is damn hard to oust with decks designed to unload pool damage or to deny pool gain actions. But then again, you're beating your head against its very strengths, so that isn't a surprise is it?

I did say Ashur Tablets are broken, which I believe more of a problem than MMPA alone. I still think recursion on a grand scale is a problem - one that's not directly related to Girls X. It's not Ashur's envy that drives my belief, by the way.

I will admit that I don't run MMPA Tablets in tournaments, though I've messed around with the archetype casually. I admire the elegance, but don't really enjoy its play. Your experience is perhaps more relevant than mine, because of more substantive tournament play.

With regard to Rod's question, I happen to find [ANI] combat more "interactive" than [OBF]{THA] stealth, which is why I suggested it. Perhaps we just have a different definition of "interactive"

IMO, a significant stealth package is actually designed to avoid table interaction - and head directly to pool loss. Others might say "interactive" is doing something every turn from turn 2 on, even if that interaction is Night Moves bleed that never sees a block. All good, either way, just a question of perspective.

Have a good evening.

I think the explosion of MMPA indicates bad game design in VTES, stretching back years before it became this popular archetype.

it's not necessarily broken, if your defintion of broken means it's unbeatable. but such decks do seem to gain the most from an imbalanced table, or nonaggressive predator. maybe for a multiplayer game like VTES, that's enough to be considered broken.

breaking the "1 master per turn" rule has always been obviously strong, though it depends on how such a privilege is obtained and kept. the Jyhad set cards Anson and Rumors of Gehenna are not so much the problem here, so much as the cards that came later and built on top of the concept. Parthenon is terrible design. Anthelios is terrible design. super masters like Direct Intervention and Villein are worse problems than the slow and steady Ashur Tablets. (Anson's a little broken, but it's not entirely his special's fault -- he does have a Prince title and dominate after all)

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before anyone regurgitates the usual bullshit ad hominem argument that's been spewing around in this thread... yes, I have gotten to the finals of a 47-player tournament using a deck with 10+ Sudden Reversals. how about you?

from a player's perspective, I have no problem metagaming around it. from a balancing perspective, I have no problem critcizing this flaw in VTES. the latter is what this message board is here for.

First of all, I think the easiest way to bring order into the chaos again would be to ban Ashur Tablets. Generic recursion should be a nec/giovanni-themed thing, not a master card. Also, with the multiple master action decks these do seem like the lynchpin card that would bring them down to earth again.


With that said. Many people here state that the main problem with ashurs/anthelios/pathenon/etc is not the cards themselves, rather the combination. In the Game of Thrones LCG they have another solution to this problem, they made a "restricted list". Each deck may only contain one of the cards on the restricted list (in any number of copies). This way you do not ban the card, but you prevent the combination. This might not be a good thing to do in VTES, but I figured that I would throw the idea out there just to show that there are other ways of solving a problem than putting things on a banned-list.