Limit master cards?

Ashur wrote:

Tupdogs and Khazars are decktypes that can be handeled, much like let´s say weenie-POT or Shamblings has been handeled for fifteen+ years. MMPA:s and card recursion are game mechanics. Do you understand the difference between “complaining” about these decktypes and “complaining” about game mechanics which has been extremely altered in the last three years?

Well of course I understand that, which is why I asked you about that specifically. Do you understand how to comprehend what you've read? Do you understand that obnoxious questions like that are not conducive to discussion?

Great, now that that is out of the way, I will point out that all the same complaints you are making now have been made in the past about these other decks. That is my point here. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean we should be skeptical and not just make changes right away.

Ashur wrote:

Do you see it changing in any direction? How will it change? You mean _everyone_ will start playing PRE-weenies or Vignes? Sorry, that is not how this game works – about 50 % of the people I play with will probably not change their decks a lot – and this has been one of the strong points of Vtes, to be able to show up with a 10 year old deck and still have a chance to win. Is this no longer desirable? (If it was design intent, it´s a sad coincidence WW cancelled the game so that this in my opinion bad intent could be completed.)

I haven't been playing enough lately to see any shifts, but of course the metagame will shift. It always shifts. People will realize that their old decks aren't really doing it anymore and will tweak them and build new decks and a new pacing will emerge. This always happens.

Ashur wrote:

Yeah. It´s a mystery how it, and other MMPA-decks just keep winning. And making the game boring while doing it.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. Nobody is saying it is a mystery. It's actually quite obvious and easily explained. These decks have numerous weaknesses that aren't being exploited right now and in turn perfectly exploit a current popular style of play.

Well, it´s a fact - not all players have the Tablets.

Or Mind Rapes. Or Summon History. Or Unleash Hell's Fury. Or Parity Shift. Or Derange. Availability of cards is not an argument why cards are too strong.

What you describe is not Nana-potence (www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2011ecday2

As you may or may not be aware I was actually in those very finals playing against that deck. I also played against it in one of the prelims the same day. I also played it myself during day 1 of the EC2010 in Paris.

It works *exactly* how I describe it. A Sudden slows you down to the point where 2-3 Suddens on the right cards slow you down enough that you probably won't make the gamewin unless someone messes up real bad.

In this specific case you mentioned the player playing the deck wouldn't actually have won the game (and with it become 2011's champion) if his predator wouldn't have allowed him to play 12 combat cards in the last round of the game (drawing into *exactly* enough +bleed to get a VP before timing).

Big cap vote is better with MMPA and Tablets, sb is better with MMPA and Tablets, rush combat is better with MMPA and Tablets, wall decks are better with MMPA and Tablets. And so on.

Except, it is not. It's different and more geared towards sitting tight, tuning its deck for 90 minutes and letting someone die.

As vtesocrates correctly pointed out, Ashur recursion decks exploit a weakness in the metagame where nobody wants to make a move before the 1:30 mark. Start moving forward faster and see how good their cardflow is. I'll give you a hint: it will stink.

There is a difference between weenie presence and a fast deck. If your playgroup and you think Vignes should be catagorized with weenie presence I don't know what to say. Last time I checked midcap S/B is still around and works just fine against Ashur based decks. Any Lawfirm type of deck completely destroys the ani rush based variant.

Maybe, just maybe, you should actually try and play these decks instead of theorycrafting up a bunch of arguments and throwing this forum full of nonsense.

Cos, ya know, I play them and I play against them a fair amount and yes, it's good. It's even great, like dementation and lawfirm are great. Is it broken? I don't think so.

And yes, sometimes it stoppes you dead cold like sometimes a No Secrets stops you cold. Or you get oisted in 5 turns because you wanted to bring out an 11-cap from position #2 and your predator is play Lagacy of Pander. But that's what happens.

the first ashur decks that i remember seeing were slimmed-down anson+celerity+guns and they used ashurs to recur combat cards mainly, so that they could run 70ish-82 cards and not worry about the decks being too thin. i like the tablets in that sort of a roll. i still run them in that sort of a roll.

the girls decks use them to recur masters at will among other things. no other deck that has generated heat from players has been as largely broken. tupdogs i have NEVER had a problem with, diary i've been ousted by for sure, but it was when i was playing a deck that had little to no table answers (samedi with dead hookers or malk 94...). tupdogs are strong, but other combat can smoke them easily (akunanse, nos, gangrel, brujah... if you can put out damage with potence, celerity, and or animalism and have some prevent, you can wreck tupdogs. if you steal a tupdog, the tempo of their deck goes to crap fast)

i'm a huge fan of ashur tablets. i'm a fan of anson with guns with ashurs, i'm a fan of ferox gargolye comabt with ashurs, i'm a fan of everything other than mmpa decks with ashurs. generic recursion should be something nec has (since it sucks horribly at everything but making zombies, having spot stealth/intercept/block denial or ending combat[and earth meld is still the best s:ce]) but sudario isn't necro, its giovanni, and outside of that clan, there should be recursion.

combat likes recursion. walls like recursion. decks stuck at a table with constant revolution/slaughterhouse garbage like recursion, especially if they are combat and can easily run out of cards by playing them.

but the mmpa decks get trifle, regular mpa, minion generated mpa, possibly another minion generated mpa, then parthenon mpa. thats enough to do all sorts of bloating and recurring nonsense. in fact, they only need one more and they can liquidate twice and the pop 3 ashurs ina turn.
its not THAT clunky to play, if your hand jams its less of a problem with that deck since even key cards can get recurred.

i doubt anything will be done errata wise without a huge amount of consideration (and probably not until the girls decks take even more tournaments) but i'm not even opposed to the tablets, i'm just opposed to them recurring master cards or events, and being able to play multiples in a turn.
really, my biggest problem is the fact that you can opo the tablets more than once per methuselah.
if you can't have the absolute most optimal library by mid-game after putting back in 12 cards that were in your ash heap (probably pot stealth/intercept/bleed enhancement/combat/burned ally) and one to the hand, what deck are you playing and why? girls decks don't need to worry as much about things when every few turns can mean another liquidation and ashurs.
if the tablets only worked once per methuselah, they'd be less of a problem.
i'm more in favor of weakening them than banning them, since they would have value even without the mmpa girls decks abusing them (and they still were a very expensive common before girls took spotlight at tournaments).

but arguing over if an archetype that is that durable and has that many wins is good/ broken is kinda redundent. i play combat, and combat doesn't automatically beat girls. metagaming isn't the issue, the abuse of masters and the flow of the deck is.