file Why celerity is such a bad discipline ?

27 Nov 2019 13:37 #97999 by elotar

Poci wrote:
Lönkka fortunately got the whole point, making underutilised and underused disciplines better, so diversity increases. Just fixing celerity alone would make waves with assamites, !gangrel and brujah/!brujah outright.

You can make a conditional bounce card that works against vamps without celerity, for example.


Games do not work this way. It does not matter how much better is something suboptimal, the right choice will be the best one. You can play :cel: for the lulz, but then powerlevel does not matter, or you can play :cel: when your deck is about something else (mentioned Stanislava/Unnamed, MMA with Anson ets) and you got no access to better alternatives.

To be good discipline should have some area in which it is the best.

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27 Nov 2019 16:08 #98002 by Poci
In this game, clans and disciplines can be fixed and improved, as many previous instances already proving this.

The devs can give a staple card or two to any clan or discipline and make it worth playing instantly, it's just the matter of if they want to or not.

What you are talking about is historically strong disciplines, clans and specific cards, which is a completely different animal.

I know that currently the most important measurements are efficiency generally and after that comes bleed efficiency and if the discipline provides bounce or not.

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28 Nov 2019 09:49 #98011 by elotar

Poci wrote: In this game, clans and disciplines can be fixed and improved, as many previous instances already proving this.


Provide the examples, please.

From the top of my head it's Emerald legionnaire from resent times and Carrion Crows from the ancient history. Both are bad - HoS are now just support for EL+Liquidation combo, CC just made all other combat strategies suboptimal.

O, and new cards for Baali which was designed in general idea to make clan weaknesses irrelevant.

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28 Nov 2019 09:51 #98012 by Lönkka
Well, Celerity is THE best for controlling the combat (maneuvers, presses, additional strikes. Even dodges and extremely minor prevent).

Unfortunately that really doesn't amount to much anything... :/

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28 Nov 2019 11:10 - 28 Nov 2019 11:25 #98019 by Lech

Lönkka wrote: Well, Celerity is THE best for controlling the combat (maneuvers, presses, additional strikes. Even dodges and extremely minor prevent).

Unfortunately that really doesn't amount to much anything... :/


It's also very inefficient.
Maneuver ? Fortitude have it with prevent 1
Press ? Fortitude have it with prevent 1/X
Additional Strike ? Obtenebration have it with dodge.
Dodge with press or maneuver with press ? Thanatosis have it with maneuver, too. Animalism have AIDS from bats, with strike.
Dodge ? Thaumaturgy have it with additional dodge this round.
New Combat ? Thanatosis have new round of combat, and with useful inferior too.

Sure, Pursuit is nice, but that's it. Maybe psyche!, but overall it's discipline used for forced march and instant transformation.

Want good celerity card ?

Good card 1
:cel: Maneuver.
:CEL: After combat ends, enter combat with minion controlled by opposing meth (can be the same minion).

Decent card 2
:cel: Strike: dodge. With an optional additional strike if you have :CEL:
:CEL: Additional Strike, with an optional press this round, only usable to continue combat.

Just because celerity have bad cards, don't mean that it have to stick to their power level and can make some of the old cards wallpaper.

Nothing prevents also design like:

:cel: something combat
:CEL: combat. put on the vampire (can have only 1). If have 6+ capacity, have one optional maneuver or press during combat with opposing vampires with 5- capacity and allies.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Last edit: 28 Nov 2019 11:25 by Lech.

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28 Nov 2019 13:49 #98022 by elotar
Problem with :cel: is not combat. It's not great as you need weapons, but it's fine.

But the are many other fine combat disciplines.

Problem with :cel: (even worse with :pot: ) is that there are very few other valid uses for it (except mentioned untap in dual discipline cards).

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