file Why celerity is such a bad discipline ?

23 Sep 2019 16:22 #97084 by self biased

LivesByProxy wrote: Also Magic, unlike VTES, decided not to add 5 additional colors to their color pie. With VTES having so many disciplines (colors), it would seem really hard to design cards that don't infringe on other discipline's schtick. Animalism :ani: is already kind of in this spot, being "tool box" discipline.


You bring this up a lot, but I don't think it's fair to directly compare the themes associated with disciplines to the themes associated with the colors in in Magic The Gathering. If anything Clans are probably a better vehicle for this, but even then only in the most general fashion. That being said, I would love to see more clan themed cards based around disciplines to better show how different clans use the same discipline.

LivesByProxy wrote: I think Celerity should "break" the 1 bleed, 1 vote per minion rule. As in: a Celerity card that lets your guy take an additional bleed or vote action this minion phase. ("But think of [insert OP 10-11cap here]!")


It really depends on the design of the card. I think you're probably on to something worthwhile, but if the designers choose to head in that direction, I'd hope they would tread very carefully.

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23 Sep 2019 16:42 #97085 by Lech
10-11 cap already can do it, enkil's cog.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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23 Sep 2019 19:15 #97096 by Mewcat
I thought it said why is celerity such a dad discipline. Had images of guy playing celerity and talking about his lawn and the stock market (that he doesn't really do anything with).

Its bad because the game has been on autopilot for 20+ years.

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23 Sep 2019 19:21 #97097 by Malachy
I don't think Celerity is a bad discipline. Lot of cool stuff you can do with it, and not just CELGUN. Of course, it is more of a support discipline, but an important and impactful of that! It is certainly not weak.

If you want it to be more toolboxy, or unique, I believe it wasn't created like that, because of its nature. You are fast, and that's it. Of course there is a lot of room to design, super cool stuff can be achieved by speed, but originally, compared to other disciplines, like Protean, Necro, Thaum, it kinda evlolved around the more simpler stuff (maneuver, add strike, press - like combat "speedy").
Also, lots of vamps have cel, it is quite widespread, so designing cards that let Celerity excel, could cause a rampant run. This might or might not be bad for the game, but still, quite challenging task.

In deckbuilding I have rarely come to regret that my vamp had Celerity. Forced March/Instant Trans are gold, Psyché, Pursuit, Stutter Step are so convenient in combat, costing zero blood. They are not standalone stuff, like carrion-aids, I know, but still very strong. An honorable mention could be Resist Earth's Grasp, also a very good card! Elotar mentioned Flurry of Action, more niche, but also supercool card. I've seen Scalpel Tongue excel more than one times.

NC of Hungary

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23 Sep 2019 21:06 - 23 Sep 2019 21:55 #97099 by LivesByProxy
Here's a quick mock-up list of the mechanics that Celerity uses. Note: this does not demonstrate how the cards are phrased exactly, it merely counts the instances that a mechanic appears in either the inferior or superior slot (denoted as X/Y). Hopefully this is helpful in some way.

Celerity - 60 Cards

Additional Strike --- 8/9
Manuever --- 8/3
Press --- 8/2
Strike: Dodge --- 7/2
(D) Bleed --- 6/3
Unlock --- 3/3
Strike: R Damage --- 3/1
+Intercept --- 3/1
Strike: Combat Ends --- 2/2
+Stealth --- 2/1
Draw Cards --- 2/1
Inflict Damage --- 1/1
Enemy Can’t Dodge --- 1/1
Reduce Bleed --- 1/0
First Strike --- 1/1
Lock Minion --- 0/1
Strike: Steal Weapon --- 1/0
Rush --- 1/1
Gain Blood --- 1/0
-Intercept --- 1/0
Pool Burn --- 0/1
Discard --- 1/0
Begin Another Combat - 0/1
Prevent Damage --- 0/1
Deny Block --- 1/1
Set Range --- 1/0
Strike: Hands --- 0/1
Continue Action --- 0/1

Notes:
Rapid Thought* at superior is really weird to classify concisely. No other requirements were accounted for. Some of these cards require Anarch, or Liabon, for example. Dual-discipline requirement cards were ignored. (Eyes of Blades, Forced March, Instantaneous Transformation, Quicken Sight, Retain The Quick Blood, Sanguine Entrapment, Scalpel Tongue, Scourge of Alecto, & Shadow Feint.) So the list is really 51 out of 60 Celerity cards.

Edit: @SelfBiased: I think we're mostly in agreement, so let me clarify my position for posterity. You say theme but I think the color pie analogy is about the relationship of mechanics to theme. The "color pie" of MTG, for those who don't know, is a useful metaphor for thinking about the game's mechanics and theme - there is only so much of the "pie" to go around, so to speak. Likewise, there are a limited amount of mechanics present in the game at this moment. And we want each part of the pie to have its own "flavor" - for the disciplines/colors/factions/whatever to feel distinctly different (this is the theme part), have different strengths and weakness, support different strategies, etc. And they gain this flavor from having the card's mechanics match a player's preconception of the card name, supported by the art.

What makes VTES kind of weird, and SelfBiased alluded to it, is that VTES' disciplines carry with them two or more potential layers of theming: the discipline itself, and then the discipline as used by a particular clan in their particular way. Having clan-specific cards that also require a clan discipline would help differentiate Nosferatu :ANI: from Gangrel :ANI:, for example. And in general, I think putting more emphasis on disciplines would be a good thing for the game. (Mostly because vampires using their vampire powers is cool.)

Edit 2: @SelfBiased: And thinking more about it, you're right that the clans would be a better vehicle for conveying themes associated with clans and disciplines, but I guess I put more emphasis on the disciplines because, thus far, the game has very little clan-themed discipline use! *looks disappointedly at Vermin Channel*

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 23 Sep 2019 21:55 by LivesByProxy.

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24 Sep 2019 06:34 #97104 by Lech
I think there is huge design gap when it comes to clan-related discipline cards.
Simple "cost 1 less for Brujah/! Brujah" would make some celerity cards better, like aire of elation

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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