Expansion Update

Perhaps it's a question of money and privilege. Proxies hurt those who spent a lot of money on cards because proxies endanger the value of their collections.

Proxies hurt those who were privileged to have been collecting sets as they came out and who were able to buy the cards as cheaply as possible. Proxies mean that these players will lose the advantage they have against new players who can't afford to buy the old cards at their current market price.

Among those who have not been collecting a long time, proxies hurt those who can currently spend a lot of money on cards because they will not be able to obtain better collections than those who cannot spend as much money on cards.

My only evidence is that I know that at least two people on this thread advocating for proxies cannot or choose not to invest much money in their collections.

Aaron wrote:

Perhaps it's a question of money and privilege. Proxies hurt those who spent a lot of money on cards because proxies endanger the value of their collections.

Proxies hurt those who were privileged to have been collecting sets as they came out and who were able to buy the cards as cheaply as possible. Proxies mean that these players will lose the advantage they have against new players who can't afford to buy the old cards at their current market price.

Among those who have not been collecting a long time, proxies hurt those who can currently spend a lot of money on cards because they will not be able to obtain better collections than those who cannot spend as much money on cards.

My only evidence is that I know that at least two people on this thread advocating for proxies cannot or choose not to invest much money in their collections.

This is an interesting argument, but I think it cuts both ways. If you think about short term vs long term differences and players' motivations, it could be "good" or "bad."

Case one:
Player with a lot of cards who wants to sell some or all of them now.

If proxies were available right now, they might get a lower price for their cards, especially the more chase cards. The game may be more likely to die off in the long run because cards are still concentrated, hard to say. The card pool certainly won't go up and will likely go down as some are lost or damaged.

Case two:
Player with a lot of cards who wants to continue playing a long time and potentially sell some cards.

The price people are willing to pay for some of their cards may go down for now. There might be more players over the long term because the level of investment is low.

What is "worth" more depends on what you value.

I don't expect that many people will make all proxy decks. Most cards are relatively cheap, so I would expect to see proxies taped to cards like No Confidence in opaque sleeves. The time, effort and money it would take to make hundreds or thousands of proxies would be too much and you'd still need backs to make them close enough to the originals. This would mean some baseline level of value for the cards as long as people continue to play.

CCGs are a relatively new hobby for me, so I may not see them as being much of an investment and more of a game. I don't mean to completely write off people's investment in the game, I just don't see it as being the main thing to preserve about VTES, if that is even possible.

I'm not arguing against proxies, Brandon. I'm just saying let's frame the question as truthfully as possible.

I'm a pro-"Occupy Wall Street" type person, so my bias is certainly against vested interests.

I got back into VTES after a gap of 12 years because I thought cards would be relatively inexpensive and I had extra disposable income after retiring all my student loan debt (!). Between 2008 and 2011, the price of older cards has increased greatly, partly, I suspect, because of the gains the Euro made against the dollar*, but also because of more people getting into the game than out of it.

Personally I think that there should be some financial investment, because, well, I have spent quite a bit of money myself. At the same time, I'm sick of having to worry about shelling out $8 just because I want to try out some random rare like Brothers Grimm.

I have always thought that in order to build decks creatively you need access to all the different cards, but nowadays spending money on individual hard-to-find cards seems less and less interesting.

There are a couple of young players in LA who do not have Villeins, so they can't build decks that would require Minion Taps and/or Villeins. Why?

*In other words, the price of online auctions may have become more expensive for Americans because Europeans can afford to bid higher because of the comparative value of the Euro (and Br. Pound) against the US dollar.

Aaron,
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to attack you as being part of the side of this argument I don't particularly agree with. My motive for posting on this thread is about the future of VTES, but also personal.

I've put a significant amount of money into collecting cards over time. I don't see them as being worth anything inherantly and I would really like to see the game spread more widely/evenly, so I would not take offense if someone never had to open a booster pack. That said, I don't think that's what proxies would mean for the game. I think it would be a big pain in the ass to make that many proxies. On the other hand, it would be pretty hard to expect hundreds of dollars for Enkil Cogs. True collectors would be willing to buy the real thing at a high cost, but that wouldn't be as much of a barrier for entry into the game or decks that feature those cards. The result would be somewhere between the all proxies and no proxies scenarios, IMO.

As an example of what I mean, I've proxied plenty of cards and then bought or traded for them when I had the chance. There would be less incentive to get the real thing if proxies were tournament legal, but my home printer is never going to make a card that looks as good as what a professional printer would do.


Brandon

I wonder if the issue for people who would not like to see proxies is more about feeling like they shouldn't have spent the money on cards in the first place if they will become nearly free or if it has to do with expected trade/resale value. Anyone care to weigh in on that?

Edit: *Or does it have to do with being willing to pay to have an advantage in the game? Or none of the above.

Another issue involved with allowing proxies: Standards.

VEKN would have to establish guidelines for quality of proxies. The cost of printing cards, even at home, isn't going to be all that cheap. But if players are willing to put money into copies of cards, it shows a potential publisher that players will still pay money to play V:tES.

Also, it would put VEKN into a position to encourage copywrite infringement. In the very least, I expect artwork would not be allowed to be reprinted.

Seeing that VEKN is considering fan created expansion, I expect things like icons and backgrounds to be reprinted for consistency, so VEKN is already entering some grey area.

Also, VEKN could consider this: make a list of high value or chase cards, and disallow them from home made proxies. Allow VEKN organizers to make proxies of these cards for prize support. They would need something to make them official, like a stamp or something.

Anyway, that's me. Outside the box again with two cents.