Expansion Update

So, to try to be as eloquent as you, "waah waah cry cry I don't have the number of players in VtES that satisfies me as an Organizer."

So you create a non-sanctioned tournament that allows proxies!

Yay! Your entire problem is solved. You'll have hundreds of new players by the end of next year!

I for one, have NO problems with proxies in casual play. I even encourage it, as they improve people's will to play (Hey, i wanna try something new!"). Of course,a s long as it is not exaggerated.

But the very moment proxies become tournament legal, it will be my last vtes tournament. I have already stated my sentiment towards this, so not to repeat myself...

nc-italy wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Exactly. With the stroke of a pen proxies can be made legal. Similarly, they can be made illegal when/if some chooses to pick up the game and print it for money.

Please consider that by that stroke of pen (thus un-legalizing in sanctioned play the would-be allowed proxies for old cards) you would then waste tons of papers and inks used to print all of the would be proxies in the meantime, likely with lots of subsequent player hate

I would think that they would be happy the game wasn't dead, plus they could still use the cards in casual play. Sure, it would take some time and money to print the proxies in the meantime, but I think a smart publisher would find out what people were proxying and put them in their first sets.

KevinM wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Some things to consider:
-Should they be allowed in casual play?

This has nothing to do with the VEKN. What you do in non-VEKN situations is irrelevant to the VEKN.

If your playgroup didn't let you play with proxies in the past, I could see the reasoning. But if they don't let you play with proxies NOW, they're just acting like jerks.

I agree with you. I was thinking more along the lines of figuring out the logistics of proxying decent looking cards in a uniform way, trying to win some skeptics over when they see them in real life, then eventually allowing them in tournaments. Now would be the time to come up with a sort of template, requirements that the card say "Proxy" at the bottom of the photo, etc.

Lönkka wrote:

You can use proxies as much you like in casual play. I'd be willing to bet that vast majority (like all) new players are playing casual.

So nothing is preventing them from using proxies in casual play. Yet I assume you're not seeing the influx of new players even if they can use whatever card they want to (as proxies) in casual play and they basically don't need to invest a cent to the game.

Do you see this happening or is the argument regarding allowance of proxies due to new players just fundamentally flawed, eh?

We have so few players that it is paramount to bring the neonates over to tournaments asap.
In my opinion, casual play and organized play are both as important and should both be merged as much as possible.
Examples of this are house rules for casual play like, enforcing a two hour limit.
I need the players that have entered the game in the last 12 months to come to Tournaments.
When integrating new players in the tournament scene there are two things they feel handicapped when comparing with the older players: skill and amount of cards. We can eliminate one of those easily to welcome more people into the game.

I don't agree with the argument that allowing for proxies just while we don't have a publisher is a bad thing. The number of players involved in the game is what we need to worry about. That is what a company will look at.
And... we can't have proxies of old cards, but we can have proxies of new ones?
I say both are ok, market-wise.

How do we decide what expansions are "proxiable"? Easy:
The expansions that VEKN can't get Princes and NC's for prize support.

I know that this brings consequences.
Retailers with boxes of stuff sitting there to sell as expensive as possible will be screwed over, but people will still buy Dark Sovereigns and Jyhad. Even if they can proxy Arika or Parity Shift.
There will be less speculation and less power to the "Rating Agencies" of VtES sub prime.
More cards will be in the hands of players, instead of warehouses. That should also be a good thing.

I honestly don't care if my 3 Enkil Cogs loose value.

Legalize now!

Pendargon wrote:

But the very moment proxies become tournament legal, it will be my last vtes tournament. I have already stated my sentiment towards this, so not to repeat myself...

This is a strong sentence, that seems rather extreme.
With Proxies, card text and tournament rules would not change (except the obvious rules that define the use of proxies.).
For the sake of argument, can you please point to the place where you stated your opinion, or tell us the name/place of that thread?

If you are referring to your experience as a tabletop miniature strategy player, it's iPhones and oranges.
You need the visual reference of each detailed miniature. A Guardsman is very different from a Marshal or an Inquisitor. A Lehman Russ is very different from a Basilisk.
Proxies in VtES would keep the visual of the card, with card text and everything. And using proxies is not lazy work. It is more work.

I understand that you might not want to use proxies. I feel the same way.
I don't feel bad that my young opponents might have better decks against me.
How else would I train to play against you guys?