Expansion Update

There seems to be a fairly even split between those who want official support of proxies, and those who are against it.

VEKN could support more than one ranking system. Why not add a couple categories of tournament types and keep the rankings separate? We have a Standard format, a multi-deck and/or rapid thought format would be nice if they were more prevalent. Including an "Open" tournament type that allows proxies wouldn't be an awful idea. HAve your cake and eat it too.

direwolf wrote:

VEKN could support more than one ranking system. ...

The VEKN doesn't even support ONE ranking system yet. Two seems... unlikely.

nc-italy wrote:

Myrdin wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

New players will start with casual play in 99,99% of instances.

But if you can't get new players in for casual play even if proxies are allowed, then the talk about tournament scene and proxies is mere rhetoric.


My opinion still stands:
No proxies (in tournaments). EVER.

No new expansion for you then since the distribution will most likely be via printed proxies

This is moslty incorrect notion - printed cards from pdf sets won't "proxy" at all old exisisting published cards, so the new ones will be considered genuine game cards outright and not "proxy" cards
Also, tournament rules on cards allowed will be modyfied accordingly, once the pdf set will be published

Is this a distinction without much of a difference? Cards that are not printed by a publisher on card stock in a way that matches the cards that already exists will have to be put in opaque sleeves, attached to existing cards, etc, just like proxies. Proxies are for cards that already exist whereas these new cards would be for cards that are part of future expansions.

It seems like the main differences between these two things are:
1) There is an idea that having official copies of existing is somehow detrimental to the game.
2) New cards printed in the same way as in #1 are not similarly detrimental to the game.

I would argue that the opposite is closer to the truth, but only slightly. Cards that exist are already allowed in the game (tested, not banned), where new cards are more experimental.

I'm not against having a new expansion because that is part of maintaining interest in the game, I just don't see any credibility to the argument against proxies.

KevinM wrote:

direwolf wrote:

VEKN could support more than one ranking system. ...

The VEKN doesn't even support ONE ranking system yet. Two seems... unlikely.

Well then, maybe the VEKN homepage should be edited to remove any mention of "ratings (and rankings)"

There is still room to have different supported tournament styles, some supporting proxies and others not.

VEKN is about supporting the players is it not? Some players use proxies. I don't but If there were events that allowed for them, I would start using them. Mostly to print copies of cards I already have rather than cannibalizing my decks everytime i do deckbuilding.

Is this a distinction without much of a difference? Cards that are not printed by a publisher on card stock in a way that matches the cards that already exists will have to be put in opaque sleeves, attached to existing cards, etc, just like proxies. Proxies are for cards that already exist whereas these new cards would be for cards that are part of future expansions.

It seems like the main differences between these two things are:
1) There is an idea that having official copies of existing is somehow detrimental to the game.
2) New cards printed in the same way as in #1 are not similarly detrimental to the game.

Part of the appeal of a TCG like V:TES is collecting the cards. Trying to get what you don't and trading that what you choose not to use for what you want to have.

Another part is not being able to netdeck everything and being forced to adjust decklists to match with your collection. Being forced to be creative and experiment with alternatives because you can´t build `the best deck´ is good.

If the established V:TES players don't like these two things, among many other reasons, they wouldn´t have been playing V:TES. With unlimited cardpools V:TES is just another version of bridge. And a pretty poor one at that.

Also, the only reasons people ask for proxies is because of Villein, Deep Song and Ashur Tablets. Really. Everything else is either readily available and cheap, highly specialized and thus unnessecary to proxy or not required to have large amounts of and thus affordable to get 1 or 2 copies of.

So again, what's the point? Decks that are being built with nothing but cheap as chips staples and a few uncommons from sets that are readily available win tournaments every week. Villein-less decks are still strong competitors in this era of poolgain. People ARE competitive without proxies or big wallets.

Izaak wrote:

Part of the appeal of a TCG like V:TES is collecting the cards. Trying to get what you don't and trading that what you choose not to use for what you want to have.

I think we've discussed this part. To paraphrase what I said, people still like to have the originals and will continue to seek them out even if they can print a proxy. Trading is secondary to playing the game for me. People have different tastes-and that's ok.

Izaak wrote:

Another part is not being able to netdeck everything and being forced to adjust decklists to match with your collection. Being forced to be creative and experiment with alternatives because you can´t build `the best deck´ is good.

I can see how many players like the challenge. I do, too. Some would really prefer to be able to play X Sensory Deprivations, Villeins, and Dreams. People have different tastes-and that's ok. Since there is no publisher, we really don't have to factor their bottom line into this.

Izaak wrote:

If the established V:TES players don't like these two things, among many other reasons, they wouldn´t have been playing V:TES. With unlimited cardpools V:TES is just another version of bridge. And a pretty poor one at that.

Are those two issues you mentioned the reason people play VTES, or the conditions they have been under while playing VTES. I for one don't say "I like this game because I can't ___________." No one will be required to use proxies, so those who see things the way you do can continue to enjoy that style of deckbuilding and playing. People have different tastes-and that's ok.

Izaak wrote:

Also, the only reasons people ask for proxies is because of Villein, Deep Song and Ashur Tablets. Really. Everything else is either readily available and cheap, highly specialized and thus unnessecary to proxy or not required to have large amounts of and thus affordable to get 1 or 2 copies of.

Some cards that people want to proxy are game-changing staple cards (i.e. Villein, Deep Song). Other cards might be older, difficult to find or pay for cards (i.e. Parity Shift, Sensory Deprivation, Derange, etc). Some may just want to try decks they don't currently have the cards to make to see if it is worth while to get those cards. I would not want to be the one to decide for them what the valid reasons for using proxies are.

Izaak wrote:

So again, what's the point? Decks that are being built with nothing but cheap as chips staples and a few uncommons from sets that are readily available win tournaments every week. Villein-less decks are still strong competitors in this era of poolgain. People ARE competitive without proxies or big wallets.

I hope we are not completely talking past each other here. The point in making proxies is that people want to play with cards they don't already have. There are a variety of reasons for choosing whatever proxies someone might make. As far as saying, "there are decks that win without new cards," I think that is a great aspect of the game. At this point, I don't think that personal preference or whim is a good justification for restricting proxies.

To convey the idea, if not the content of what I'm saying (without getting into an argument about rights, copyrights, blah blah blah):

"Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins."
-Zechariah Chafee

In the interest of inclusiveness, lets make proxies.