Making Aye and Orun Work

Ashur wrote:

Squidalot wrote:

Ashur wrote:

I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like:

During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon.

i'm not sure if i'd want 3 AYE to hit the table this quickly on multiple minions...

OK. Say 1 card only then? Or is that too weak? My point was that I don´t want a new rule to be 20 paragraphs long. And I don´t like errata. I also like rules that look like other rules (in this case the imbued-thing)

I really like this solution (searching for one to put on a Laibon). Simple and elegant, it would be enough to make them more playable but wouldn't break anything.

Overall I agree with the fact that there are problems dealing with the Aye/Orun mechanic, but am rather surprised, especially with the Reverend's observations and Hugh's rather myopic fact gathering, that a version of an Aye deck was not mentioned that has won 3 tournaments including a 24 player week of nightmares outing (by the way, the only tournament table I've ever sat in with Mr. Angseesing) that included 14 to 15 Ayes in every rendition. Aye does offer a means to avoid a Deep Song rush and, with 3, another wake option. Orun has its advantages but i do not believe that Aye (other than with Cesewayo adv) is the less effective one of the two.

Robert wrote:

Overall I agree with the fact that there are problems dealing with the Aye/Orun mechanic, but am rather surprised, especially with the Reverend's observations and Hugh's rather myopic fact gathering, that a version of an Aye deck was not mentioned that has won 3 tournaments including a 24 player week of nightmares outing (by the way, the only tournament table I've ever sat in with Mr. Angseesing) that included 14 to 15 Ayes in every rendition. Aye does offer a means to avoid a Deep Song rush and, with 3, another wake option. Orun has its advantages but i do not believe that Aye (other than with Cesewayo adv) is the less effective one of the two.

Im not saying its useless, i am however saying that orun has cooler toys, and also that aye, as the part of the in rpgthat makes a laibon closer to the human side of things, kinda got the same treatment as the grandest trick, its notcas cool as unhuman stuff, ir as useful

Fetching one aye or orun in ash heap, hand or library when a Laibon is put into ready region from influence and placing it on that vampire is good for me. It slightly unclogs the mechanic without too much effort.

Also, you could make Aye/orun playable on uncontrolled Laibon. That would be nice and quicken the setup while not unbalancing the game.

I can easily picture my stupid orun weenie (voting) deck working far better with those two mechanics. And having seen good decks relying on high orun/aye, i can picture them as better too, but not overpowered: these need big minions, so the gain is limited.

There is still the problem of minion cards that use orun and aye, but this needs to be addressed - somehow - with a good dose of game design and aspirin. Playing Laibon clans should give a different feeling from playing camarilla, sabbat and independant clans. But honestly, with minor amendments, Aye&Orun will be almost good. Other issues need addressing:
-> Trophies
-> Crappy clans (samedi, harbingers, assamites et al)

What the game needs is a little bit of careful rebalancing so that more things work. Basically, the archetypes are too entrenched and too strong to let "outsider decks" win. Let's start with amending rules rather discreetly.
-> TL;DR: Don't make too many errata on cards, don't go towards complex systems, don't give a thousand card ideas. Keep it simple.

Honeatly, the archetypes can stay entrenched, the other stuff needs to suck less.

Im all aboit changing rules so that only one extra mpa can happen in a turn. Im all about chamging cards. Veles hunt would be playable if not for dt kilking it. Threading the path of orpheous tapping its target makes it shit-tastic.
Redlist is a problem, due to setup. Action to make redlist, hten have to use mpa to mark or use a rush to gain trophies, half of which, such as discipline or progeny, take a deck themselves to utilize properly. Not to mention figureing out how to burn minions means votes, lots of agg, or amaranth with an archon or ariadne/ muaziz.

Research and development are great for combos, if not for being a bigass undersupported combo itsself.

Gangrel, HoS, abominations, nagaraja, !gangrel, and gargoyles are all painfully impossible to win with.

Nagaraja dont NEED help, since le dihn tho, anu, and that bh lady are great, the clans scarce, and thats all you should expect.
But a primary clan like gangrel sucking is just bad. Bad planning, bad attempts to corrwct, bad reprinting, bad.
Gargoyles...... tupdog is terribly overpowered. So, gargoyles are thought to bexgood. Untrue, tupdog is, not the clan. Indy gargoyles, as in not slave, are impossible to win with. Yes, they have in the past, but barely, and ive asked those players to find this out. Someday when i dont have to post via cellphone, ill submit help for garfoyles. But they suck, and are allefedly cam aligned according to vtm20.

Abominations still are just lorrie as aupport or the bh 8 cap. !Gangrel could stop sucking post DM, we will see.

Laibon arent bad. Orun and aye arent supported well, thats the only small snag there is for laibon.

Then there's the next chunk...
Making Aye/Orun cards that are worth playing for Low amounts of Aye and Orun PLUS that scale well to higher amounts.

Ordinary Visage
Action Modifier
Requires a Laibon. Only usable when an action is announced.
This Laibon may tap X Aye to gain +X stealth, where X is less than 3. Alternatively, this Laibon may tap 3 Aye to make this action unblockable by mortal allies.

Based on the effects of Aye from VtMEK p83

Supernatural Visage
Action Modifier
Requires a Laibon. Only usable when an action is announced.
This Laibon may tap X Orun to choose X younger vampires or mortal allies who cannot block this action.

Based on the effects of Orun from VtMEK p84