Making Aye and Orun Work

Haze,

Trophy = Yes a Resource-type card
Gehenna Events = Could be considered a resource-type card
Spell of Life/Khazar's Diary = Yeah a Resource-type card
Striga/Maleficia = Yeah more of a Resource-type card

Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor
Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck.

A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Jeff, this thread exists to confirm that those cards don't provide the solution you claim. Earlier posts in this thread, if you had read them and decided to make a contribution instead of an advertisement, would have helped shown that problem.

They don't:
a) Provide enough power to offset the 'resourcing time'.
b) Decrease the 'resourcing time'.
c) Tend to have the same flaw of burning the resources to operate.

That's all your opinion. And no, I don't care to inflate your opinion of your own opinions.

I still invite others to check out the solutions we have come up with at the links above and that in my sig.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Haze,

Trophy = Yes a Resource-type card
Gehenna Events = Could be considered a resource-type card
Spell of Life/Khazar's Diary = Yeah a Resource-type card
Striga/Maleficia = Yeah more of a Resource-type card

Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor
Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck.

A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped.

I think these are valid points, but since we are scrutinizing orun and aye, i think the Payoff from investing in orun/aye when compared to other stuff is important.

This threads old, and ive already stated other stuff matters more than Orun/Aye getting improved, along with the minimal reasons to run them(and no, a non-legal set having "answers" to said issue isnt helping the conversation, since its quite plain vekn, the people who are relevant to things happening, arent allowed to use them so avoid even looking just to dodge nonsense)
So, if we see the less than half a dozen reasons to run orun and aye(vamp specials, brutal influence, exile, etc) do we decide its worth the time/card/toolup investment to keep it, or doea it make more sense to kick around ideas for changing it?
Anarch is worth the setup, its commonly just converts or masters, rarely an action, to make a vamp anarch, then you get some aweaome toys(crimethinc, masters, rev council, combat, neat 3ways) and some junk as,well.

Trophy is harder to do, but doable

Striga and mal are harder, but the do give strong incentive to set up being able to use them

Research and developement are less good. As i said, its in theory good for a combo deck, except that its a clunky combo itsself.

Now orun and aye arent as good as most of what i mentioned, but might be on par with striga amd mal.

Do we think better incentive, or rules,changes, or both is the best answer.

I like synergy and combos, but even i see ALOT of moving parts without both rules chanfe(to text of the orun and aye mostly) and maybe some incentive down the road in form of cards(that can be played and matter)

Thoughts?

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor
Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck.

A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped.

hrmm, yeah, I take it back on Choir. it's more of a Shambling Hordes type of card that combos off of other copies of itself. the card Harmony almost makes it feel like a resource-based combo, but that came long after the original design.

I wouldn't consider Anarch/BH to be like titles. from the beginning they were definitely designed as "put 8 Galaric's Legacy in your deck so you can play IMPROVISED TACTICS yay" but they evolved into something much better later on. they're more like additional sects, in a weird overlapping way. they even have their own "promotions" like Baron and Seraph.

What I mean by working like titles is the classic Weenie Pre or Legacy of Pander deck. Drops minions out who grab titles and by the time the other decks are up and playing cards, you are rolling along going forward.

Anarch/BH tech has always been similar. Get out cheap goons, grab your Anarch or BH keyword and then roll on.

Haze wrote:

I wouldn't consider Anarch/BH to be like titles. from the beginning they were definitely designed as "put 8 Galaric's Legacy in your deck so you can play IMPROVISED TACTICS yay" but they evolved into something much better later on. they're more like additional sects, in a weird overlapping way. they even have their own "promotions" like Baron and Seraph.

Anarchs, mostly yes. There was - of course - the default built-in action, but that was also expensive in terms of blood and actions wasted (given it didn't have an innate untap).

Black Hand is a bit less so, because there were quite a few native Black Hand vampires swirling round, even in the first set - roughly two per 'proper' Sabbat clan, 1 for Pander, 1 for Assamite, 1 for Setites. But there was also some discipline coherence across some of the vampires, making it plausible to put together a couple of decks that have Black Hand as the second or third pseudo-discipline. Auspex combos in particular come out of the first BH set with a decent-ish clutch of vampires.