Making Aye and Orun Work

agzocgud wrote:

How about making this a rule instead, like the default action to become anarch.

"Any laibon vampire you control can take an +1 stealth undirected action to search your library for an aye or orun card card. This actions costs x blood, where x is the number of such cards on the vampire. If succesful, untap the acting vampire at the end of turn."

Needs tweaking, but I like the idea.

Still a little awkward, in that it uses up an action, and while the Ishtarri have Freak/Forced to play with, the others don't so much.

However, the rules option seems generally a nicer way to go, and it would fairly easy to do something like:

If you go the card way, I'd massively prefer they weren't exclusive cards. Something more multi-functional.
That way, you can have a reasonable number in the deck, and switch gear part-way through.

My question is why do you think that Orun and Aye are broken?

Darby Keeney's Deck "Govern is Weaksauce" won with Orun.

Sahan Abeln won the Belgian ECQ using at least 8 Orun.

It seems to me that good players can win with the mechanic.

If you can win a ECQ with the mechanic, I don't think it needs to be fixed.

If you play laibon and are having problems with how bad orun and aye are, why are you using orun and aye?

No secrets is the good part about being laibon, add terra incognita and well marked for more awesome.

Orun with nb is solid. There are 20ish parts of the game im more concerend with helping than orun and aye.

Abombwe is the discipline withthe fewest useless cards currently, no reason to give it bad stuff.

The main problem with orun and aye is that its not (in the WoD) something like stacking cards on a minion.
Its the morality/humanity trait for laibon, just like paths are the humanity alternate for sabbat.

Orun and aye show how in touch with the mundane and supernatural parts of a vampires being they are. So, certain sins detract from different traits, but wouldnt affect the other. Managing both at high levels is extremely hard.

But, paths are playable, the issue is X amount of laibon clans would neex X amount of paths toxhave paths, and only Akunanse have thier own discipline.
If orun and aye were added as paths, or even like striga and malficia instead of howxthey are, it would be different.

Flight, striga, and malficia are examples of how hugh aye or orun could be implimented. With the exception that most vamps would likely not superior of orun and aye, so limit of 3 mixed isxresonable.

Or would have been if not for cards already depending on X orun or aye.

So, super orun or aye is an idea i guess, but im not losing sleep over laibon clans only having access to 6 strong ideas each instead of 8 when some clans and bloodlines arwnt even that well off.

drstrange26 wrote:

Sahan Abeln won the Belgian ECQ using at least 8 Orun.

It seems to me that good players can win with the mechanic.

Mm Sahan's deck used 8 orun with Nana for his Brutals - isn't wasn't particularly exciting but I assume with the Ashur combines to let it do fun stuff and Darby's event was 10 players [any deck can and will win in 10 players if played by a brilliant player like Darby!} .

There are a few more Orun/Aye decks in the TWDA but not many and these seem to be Cesewayo or Brutal bleed decks

I don't know if you want maths or anecdotes but the aye/orun system is too clunky [and in that respect resembles Bhand and Anarch tech]. Things that don't work right out of the box generally don't survive long enough to do well.

Maybe say any Laibon can automatically get an Aye or Orun from hand, ash heap, or library when it enters play?

Would that make Aye/Orun workable? Would it be too much juice for Laibon? Should I don a fireproof suit now for making a suggestion that would add something to the rulebook?

That would barely help the speed issue without addressing the deck-clogging issue. Maybe as part of a full solution.