[Card ban idea] List

A little thread necromancy.

Here are some changes after a discussion with a friend that I think make sense.

Immortal Grapple no longer prevents using melee weapons
Telepathic Tracking Costs 0
SCE costs 1, or 2 for untap effects
Taste, disarm, decapitate work on minions instead of vampires
Unmasking is +1 against directed actions (or hunts or just bleeds)
.44 mag is over powered, but couldn't decide on a fix (I don't know about this, but the comparison to Shotgun/Combat shotgun and costs came up. It's clearly the best gun but I don't know if that's a problem or if the others need to get better)


I'll go on to say that I'm not on the design team. My friend made the point that whoever makes changes needs to focus on their vision of the game, and in that regard I'm really confident in Black Chantry and how they've been executing their vision. These are just changes I would make, which doesn't amount to more than a hill of beans.

Many of these aren't likely, but I will provide honest feedback to your ideas:

Grapple changing to that would honestly not be ground breaking, but I feel support for melee weapons will come from other places, such as new cards of the "Aim" variety. However, I see absolutely no real life or thematic reasons why I cant punch someone in the face with brass knuckles that are already on my hand if they have me by the lapels. In vtes, if I conceal brass knuckles and we grapple, I'm left to reason in my head that I'm punching you with my non dominant hand because you've gripped me so tightly that I forget how to use my other one. Bullshit.

Sce: I hate it. Fucks the game up, because I play combat, which already sucks and sce wrecks it.
But, I'd leave it mostly as is. Leave both protean and all presence costed as is, but erratta so that only majesty in presence is usable at both ranges, all others only work at close.

Unmasking is fine as is, any problems are imbued not being handled by the table right away or recently people underestimating legionnaires decks.

Taste is fine, but decap should burn non wraith allies, and disarm should probably burn allies too, or inflict 3 extra damage and -1 strength on them if not.

44 isn't broken, its 2 pool. It does exactly what 2 pool should. It is 1 pool more than deagle or Saturday night special, strategies that are screwed by it have other problems, as animalism combat smokes guns and is more popular and weenie strategies are simply better in animalism.
Sce, grapple and +strength, and celerity guns are 3 big parts of global metagame, but I can't see real reason 44 is ruining the game.
If you build around it, it's a part of metagame. If you have to play around it because you can't build around it, its deflection.

Tele tracking for sce avoidance should only cost if the opponent is older, IMO so could be better.
I don't use it. Psyche is way better, I just know I cant deal with sce in ventrue stuff, and use agg and rotschreck in malk walls

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Grapple changing to that would honestly not be ground breaking, but I feel support for melee weapons will come from other places, such as new cards of the "Aim" variety. However, I see absolutely no real life or thematic reasons why I cant punch someone in the face with brass knuckles that are already on my hand if they have me by the lapels. In vtes, if I conceal brass knuckles and we grapple, I'm left to reason in my head that I'm punching you with my non dominant hand because you've gripped me so tightly that I forget how to use my other one. Bullshit.

I was thinking "Why make new cards when old cards work just fine?". We could just say melee weapons count as hand-strikes (most cards say hand or melee strike anyways). Thematically, if I can punch you, I can stab you/chop you/smash your face with a walking stick. It always felt like an answer to SCE or dodge but it limits so much other combat just incidentally.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Sce: I hate it. Fucks the game up, because I play combat, which already sucks and sce wrecks it.
But, I'd leave it mostly as is. Leave both protean and all presence costed as is, but erratta so that only majesty in presence is usable at both ranges, all others only work at close.

My friend mentioned making SCE only usable at long range, which I like and makes sense thematically. We're far away, I am majestic, then run the fuck away.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Unmasking is fine as is, any problems are imbued not being handled by the table right away or recently people underestimating legionnaires decks.

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Unmasking is too good for what it is and costs. There is no cost to the card, and the only downside is that you may accidentally give someone else's allies intercept. Name another card that gives all of anything 1 intercept. It's just too good, in a game changing sort of way.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Taste is fine, but decap should burn non wraith allies, and disarm should probably burn allies too, or inflict 3 extra damage and -1 strength on them if not.

Game balance or theme, either way these cards don't make sense. Random card templating leading to interactions that give additional strength to cards that don't need them.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

44 isn't broken, its 2 pool. It does exactly what 2 pool should. It is 1 pool more than deagle or Saturday night special, strategies that are screwed by it have other problems, as animalism combat smokes guns and is more popular and weenie strategies are simply better in animalism.
Sce, grapple and +strength, and celerity guns are 3 big parts of global metagame, but I can't see real reason 44 is ruining the game.
If you build around it, it's a part of metagame. If you have to play around it because you can't build around it, its deflection.

I'm not saying it's broken, but it's definitely better than the other equipment. "Over tuned" is my nice way of saying it. The card gives too much bang for your buck. Double your base strength and gain a maneuver seems pretty good for something that's accessible to any minion. I do think 3 cost is too much, and taking away the maneuver makes it bad too. I don't see a good answer here. Maybe make other guns better?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Tele tracking for sce avoidance should only cost if the opponent is older, IMO so could be better.
I don't use it. Psyche is way better, I just know I cant deal with sce in ventrue stuff, and use agg and rotschreck in malk walls

Psyche is better for guns, and better overall because tracking is over costed. Maybe they didn't want so many disciplines with combat continuing effects. I can't get in the heads of the old designers because, frankly, I think I could design better sets over a weekend taking black-tar heroin.

I'm not saying it's broken, but it's definitely better than the other equipment. "Over tuned" is my nice way of saying it. The card gives too much bang for your buck. Double your base strength and gain a maneuver seems pretty good for something that's accessible to any minion. I do think 3 cost is too much, and taking away the maneuver makes it bad too. I don't see a good answer here. Maybe make other guns better?

"Double your base strength" is just another way of saying +1 damage. You can't get less bonus numbers than 1 in this game. Semantics, but see what you did there.

In all fairness Kpist should cost 2 and I was surprised that it wasn't. It's practically .44, but for those that don't use Celerity. 2 per strike + Celerity support is good in itself. 1+1 without celerity support should for sure cost only 2, as it's sorta kinda worse.

Kraus wrote:

"Double your base strength" is just another way of saying +1 damage. You can't get less bonus numbers than 1 in this game. Semantics, but see what you did there.

In all fairness Kpist should cost 2 and I was surprised that it wasn't. It's practically .44, but for those that don't use Celerity. 2 per strike + Celerity support is good in itself. 1+1 without celerity support should for sure cost only 2, as it's sorta kinda worse.

I'm a high-level wordsmith.

Seriously though, I don't think it's over powered, just a little too good compared to the other things in the same category.

DJHedgehog wrote:

Kraus wrote:

"Double your base strength" is just another way of saying +1 damage. You can't get less bonus numbers than 1 in this game. Semantics, but see what you did there.

In all fairness Kpist should cost 2 and I was surprised that it wasn't. It's practically .44, but for those that don't use Celerity. 2 per strike + Celerity support is good in itself. 1+1 without celerity support should for sure cost only 2, as it's sorta kinda worse.

I'm a high-level wordsmith.

Seriously though, I don't think it's over powered, just a little too good compared to the other things in the same category.

So no, don't BAN .44. Take 1 cost away from Kpist and suddenly you have a competing weapon with very distinct roles - the other works well with while the other works with everything else. .44 is still better as additional strikes easily outweigh Kpist's damage potential, but you'll see other guns out there. That's variety right there.

I can kind of understand why the designers at the time might've thought that inherent additional strike would be better than .44 single 2 damage shot, but it's not the case.